Author Topic: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock  (Read 4509 times)

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Online herman

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2019, 02:06:31 PM »
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too.  If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it. 

As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round.  Waiting another year for that is tough. 

And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not.  GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.

Yeah, I agree with the point that Dubas needs to ascertain what he believes will be best for the team's success going forward. I'm not entirely sold that means cutting bait on Babcock in reaction to this series. There is so much luck involved in two weeks of play to hinge huge decisions on.

If we're going to blame Babcock and the coaching staff for their shortcomings in game 7, we should give them similar credit for getting the Leafs into this series and taking it as far as it went (they were coached about the same throughout). There were certainly things I would've done differently, but who's to say those would've actually worked better (Matthews-Nylander-Griffith 24 min TOI, baby!!)? Shoot your shot and evaluate what to improve.

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2019, 02:06:31 PM »

Offline lc9

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2019, 02:46:57 PM »
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years.  Mike has shown he is more concerned with showing he is the boss then bringing the team to the next level. 

And really, back to the ďbad luckĒ defense?  The leafs losing had nothing to do with bad luck.   

Offline Zee

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2019, 02:50:13 PM »
If Babcock needs to be ruthless with underperforming vets, then Dubas needs to be ruthless too.  If they don't get out of the first round next year, he'll be an underperforming coach and I'll be on the fire Babcock bandwagon, and Dubas should be driving it. 

As I said in the GDT I feel that the marker of success this year was getting out of the first round.  Waiting another year for that is tough. 

And, while I am emphatically NOT suggesting that we trade Nylander, should it be advantageous in the future Dubas has to be willing to pull the trigger, promises or not.  GMs have to be willing to do whatever they think is best for the team.

Yeah, I agree with the point that Dubas needs to ascertain what he believes will be best for the team's success going forward. I'm not entirely sold that means cutting bait on Babcock in reaction to this series. There is so much luck involved in two weeks of play to hinge huge decisions on.

If we're going to blame Babcock and the coaching staff for their shortcomings in game 7, we should give them similar credit for getting the Leafs into this series and taking it as far as it went (they were coached about the same throughout). There were certainly things I would've done differently, but who's to say those would've actually worked better (Matthews-Nylander-Griffith 24 min TOI, baby!!)? Shoot your shot and evaluate what to improve.

I would love to be a fly on the wall of the meeting between Dubas and Babcock.

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2019, 03:10:51 PM »
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.

Offline Strangelove

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2019, 03:14:53 PM »
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.

These are players who were generally high-rated prospects and rookies and then started to enter their prime, all while Babcock was coach. They have arguably been underutilized or misused by Babcock. I don't see any reason to give him credit here, save for maybe Rielly's development.

Offline Bullfrog

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #80 on: April 24, 2019, 03:19:08 PM »
Outside of Matthews, I don't the listed players have been underutilized. It'd be nice if Rielly was in the top 10 in TOI/g, but that's an adjustment of about 60 seconds.

and I'm not necessary defending Babcock here, just questioning the claim that the Leafs aren't developing.

Offline Michael

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #81 on: April 24, 2019, 03:20:52 PM »
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

Offline lc9

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #82 on: April 24, 2019, 03:29:17 PM »
I know you will defend Babcock at any length, but his refusal to change anything wonít change. He is who he is.  The leafs arenít developing the way the should be.  How can you justify playing Matthews 18 mins last night?  He treats the playoffs like game 24 of the season. How can this be defended?

I think some of your criticisms here are fair, but I'm not sure how you can claim the Leafs aren't developing. Do you mean the players or the team as a whole? Individually, some players have made huge strides: Matthews, Rielly, Johnsson, Marner, Kapanen, eve.

Team as a whole.  Individual development is great, but that doesnít mean anything if you donít win.   The lack of adjustments is scary. It absolutly defies logic.   

Offline Zee

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #83 on: April 24, 2019, 03:39:15 PM »
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go.   The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen.  Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step.  He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.

Offline cabber24

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #84 on: April 24, 2019, 03:43:34 PM »
Just looked up #firebabcock on twitter... wow.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #85 on: April 24, 2019, 03:50:19 PM »
Cutting bait on babcock isnít a reaction to this series.  Itís his overall body of work for the leafs.  Itís been an underwhelming 4 years. 

Is that fair? I am all for having the discussion about it being time for him to go, but I would not say that all 4 years was underwhelming.

Year 1 - they tanked and they got the pick (Matthews) that they wanted
Year 2 - drafted Matthews, started playing Marner, and signed Freddie -  got 95 points and made the playoffs - this was more than expected
Year 3 - highest points season in leafs history - played hard in playoffs, but ultimately beat by a better team
Year 4 - this is where things fall flat for me - big start and then all kinds of trouble from Dec to April

If he only had a 5 year contract I think it would be more talked about letting him go.   The fact he still has 4 years remaining as opposed to 1 makes people think it's not going to happen.  Years 1-3 were perfect in terms of doing what they needed, team building and all that, but in year 4 they should have taken the next step.  He's not a rookie coach, he's an experienced Cup winner that should have been able to get more from this roster.
Bab's biggest failures were his utilization of Matthews and the crappy special teams. All are in his control and to be very blunt, he shit the bed here. There's way too much talent not to have one of the best PP's in the league. As for the PK, his blind loyalty to guys like Hyman, Hainsey, Zaitsev and whoever else he used on the pk were his downfall. News flash. The PK wasn't good since NOV yet they never changed up the personal or put a better plan in place. That's all on coaching.

Online Deebo

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #86 on: April 24, 2019, 04:08:10 PM »
I wouldn't be opposed to change, but I just can't see it happening.

Online herman

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #87 on: April 24, 2019, 04:18:17 PM »
https://theathletic.com/943129/2019/04/24/bourne-why-firing-mike-babcock-or-making-knee-jerk-reactions-that-affects-the-leafs-core-would-be-foolish/

Complaining about what's wrong is fun and all, but providing solutions is where the money's made.

Bourne touches on the healthy tension that Dubas and Babcock's differences can foster progress with.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2019, 04:21:28 PM by herman »

Online Guilt Trip

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #88 on: April 24, 2019, 05:01:36 PM »
Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.

Offline Zee

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2019, 05:42:41 PM »
Babs isn't getting the can tied to him and I don't see the core going anywhere. You don't trade from weakness. I think Dubas, Shanny and Babs have a nice chat about what they thought he should have done. I also think Dubas will take more of Babs' favs away like he did last year. I say Babs gets one more shot at this group.


I have no faith that Babcock will learn anything from this failure. I can see us 12 months from now complaining again now Babcock kept rolling 4 lines while down in the 3rd period.   Connor Brown baby, I know he can score big goals because he scored against Pittsburgh to get us into the playoffs 4 years ago!

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Re: Playing The "What If" Game Re: Mike Babcock
« Reply #89 on: April 24, 2019, 05:42:41 PM »