Leafs Playoffs - Casual Fan Edition

[OldTimeHockey]

I think having a casual discussion thread is fine but I think it's really lousy that it so quickly devolved into basically just another moan-fest built on the cowardly slandering of long time board members.

It never really went that way until one of those long time board members came in and said people were being ignorant. I suppose it was supposed to be a joke. Who can really tell anymore?

It started literally in the opening post.

The opening post was slandering towards long time posters?

Anyhooo...back to Bonsixx's original purpose for this thread.

I think Gardiner has made several boneheaded plays this playoffs and throughout the season. If anyone made a good enough offer for him in the offseason, I'd jump on it. He's highly skilled but not skilled enough to take the risks that he does.

[Boston Leaf]

Rick,

I personally feel that this site has always had an air of arrogance but I've come to accept it as "just the way it is." I've been coming here for quite a while but refrain from posting often for this very reason.

That being said, I'm not sure why this thread can't exist. Some of us enjoy barroom banter without all the acronym's and decimal places that takes place with advanced stats. I don't necessarily have an issue with advanced stats. I personally don't feel like spending time breaking the game down into that much detail. It seems to suck some of the fun out of the game for me. If that makes me an "ignoramus"...so be it. But if we're going to be considered ignorant for not wanting to talk the fine numbers, don't be upset when someone calls you arrogant or a dick.

I agree with this.... There are times I have thoughts but I refrain..It may go against what some of the regulars post or like and then I just don't want to get into on line arguments etc.. I do feel there are certain posters here that may enjoy just cutting people up for opinions.. I read here a lot but don't post too often

[sickbeast]

It's not an easy problem to solve.  Rick I have sent you my suggestion which I think would definitely be a start and then we could take it from there.  Honestly if we want to change the culture on this forum we have to start at the top and that means changing the moderation here for the better.  The mods set the tone for the entire board, and if they are acting like pricks then it enables the trolls to run around unfettered.  I was going to keep my thoughts private but I'm putting that out there in the hope that others will agree with me and help foster some positive change for the community here.  For the traffic to drop during the past two years when it has been the most exciting time to be a Leafs fan in over twenty years it tells you something.  Something has to be done IMO.

Uhhh...

Either they can change the moderation or else start banning people like Nik the Trik.

[WhatIfGodWasALeaf]

You make one jerkish throwaway semi true quip and everyone loses their minds...

Sorry for being a jackass, I thought it was clear I was being obtuse for comedic effect.

You live and you learn.

The mods here do an excellent job compared to most cess pools online, anyone having a pop at them is out to lunch.

[herman]

It's not an easy problem to solve.  Rick I have sent you my suggestion which I think would definitely be a start and then we could take it from there.  Honestly if we want to change the culture on this forum we have to start at the top and that means changing the moderation here for the better.  The mods set the tone for the entire board, and if they are acting like pricks then it enables the trolls to run around unfettered.  I was going to keep my thoughts private but I'm putting that out there in the hope that others will agree with me and help foster some positive change for the community here.  For the traffic to drop during the past two years when it has been the most exciting time to be a Leafs fan in over twenty years it tells you something.  Something has to be done IMO.

Uhhh...

Either they can change the moderation or else start banning people like Nik the Trik.

As a general rule for myself, before I try to smear someone in a community, I like to double check that I haven’t behaved in the exact way that I am decrying.

Out of whatever respect you have for me, please reread your own post history and maybe even have a look at where this thread started turning towards baseless accusations.

[CarltonTheBear]

Speaking of being a dick about numbers, was there a statistical model on this earth that had VGK anywhere near what they've accomplished this year?

There was actually at least one model from a prominent stats person that predicted that Vegas could be really good this season... but that was PRIOR to the actual expansion draft and based on Vegas picking guys that the model/fancy stats liked. After the expansion draft that model had them as bad as everyone else figured.

[herman]

Speaking of being a dick about numbers, was there a statistical model on this earth that had VGK anywhere near what they've accomplished this year?

There was actually at least one model from a prominent stats person that predicted that Vegas could be really good this season... but that was PRIOR to the actual expansion draft and based on Vegas picking guys that the model/fancy stats liked. After the expansion draft that model had them as bad as everyone else figured.

I was very down on Vegas' expansion picks, except for some of the overreacting teams like Florida, or dumb dumb teams like Washington giving up Schmidt.

It's a very interesting case study of players that hockey teams have deemed average-ish to expendable can accomplish simply with more ice time, leash, and a speed-based strategy. It's also hard to say much about a large number of players putting up career numbers at the same time other than congrats on the paycheques.

[sickbeast]

It's not an easy problem to solve.  Rick I have sent you my suggestion which I think would definitely be a start and then we could take it from there.  Honestly if we want to change the culture on this forum we have to start at the top and that means changing the moderation here for the better.  The mods set the tone for the entire board, and if they are acting like pricks then it enables the trolls to run around unfettered.  I was going to keep my thoughts private but I'm putting that out there in the hope that others will agree with me and help foster some positive change for the community here.  For the traffic to drop during the past two years when it has been the most exciting time to be a Leafs fan in over twenty years it tells you something.  Something has to be done IMO.

Uhhh...

Either they can change the moderation or else start banning people like Nik the Trik.

As a general rule for myself, before I try to smear someone in a community, I like to double check that I haven’t behaved in the exact way that I am decrying.

Out of whatever respect you have for me, please reread your own post history and maybe even have a look at where this thread started turning towards baseless accusations.

If I have posted some things out of frustration with the bull#$#% on here, so be it. It seems like most of the other people bothered by this simply refrain from posting or else leave the board entirely. I have had several people contact me via private message with words of support and agreement. For whatever reason I guess they are just not comfortable sharing their thoughts openly here. But there is definitely a problem here. You guys trying to blame the victims or pretending that these issues do not exist is not going to solve anything.

[TML fan]

The problem with analytics based discussion is that the discussion becomes more about the merit of the numbers and the different ways they can be interpreted rather than anything to do with the original topic. Most people don't come here for that.

The rest is just human nature. Any time you get a group of people together, no matter what their commonalities are, there will be friction.

We shouldn't be trying to shut down discussion of any kind. That's only going to fracture the community even more.

[herman]

If I have posted some things out of frustration with the bull#$#% on here, so be it. It seems like most of the other people bothered by this simply refrain from posting or else leave the board entirely. I have had several people contact me via private message with words of support and agreement. For whatever reason I guess they are just not comfortable sharing their thoughts openly here. But there is definitely a problem here. You guys trying to blame the victims or pretending that these issues do not exist is not going to solve anything.

I'm curious why would you characterize the recommendation for introspection and self-assessment as victim blaming, or as willful blindness to the problem.

I think the main problem, as Bonsixx alluded to, is that people simply have different ideas of what a discussion forum means to them. Some want to analyze and dissect ideas; others just want to say what they feel and be affirmed. That spectrum exists in every community.

In the same community, inevitably someone from side A is going to post a treatise on shot location data being binned for misleading assessments of the state of a team's structure and side B will tune out.

At the same time, someone from side B is going to post about how he or she feels a certain thing turned out on the ice ("Seth Griffith will score 10 goals this season!") and maybe throw in a suggestion for how to fix it (or destroy it), someone else from side B will feel different and say so ("LOL Buffalo"), and someone from side A will analyze and dissect that suggestion and assess it accordingly ("He played top minutes with Florida and basically did nothing with that opportunity"). Sometimes the first poster will think, "ah, this is not what I was looking for", and check out. Other times that poster might take personal offense to having information counter to their beliefs thrown at them and try to attack back, usually personally because it was a personal offense to begin with so why not.

At the end of the day, we each can only control our own actions and reactions. If you want this place to be a better community, then be a better community member.

[nutman]

OK, so it's a little ironic that what was supposed to be a light, stress-free thread to allow people to just basically vent about the team without being told they're wrong because "math" has turned into some kind of state of the union thing, and that was never my intention. Nor was it my intention to insult any fellow posters.

Like I said, a post I saw about how it was a pretty sparse thread for a playoff game just made me think, and it made me consider why I don't post as often as I used to. And a lot of it was simply because these days, if you post an opinion, you better have the numbers to back up every possible situation, when sometimes all people want is to watch the game and express what they see in front of them at any given time.

Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, and expressing follow-up opinions is fine and welcomed, but it's like, when your wife/husband/whatever vents to you about their day, they don't want solutions. They want someone to listen. And if a conversation develops based on that, it's all good.

Again, the whole point was to provide a thread that was loose, like a chat in a bar, without it becoming like doing homework for an hour before you feel like you can post an opinion. I appreciate both sides of it, really, and I have no problem with those more in-depth discussions when I'm in the mood. But not everyone wants to research what (and just using him as an hypothetical here, for the record I think he's playing great) Gardiner's Corsi Close is in the last five minutes of a game on a defensive zone draw when they watch him make a bad play and vent about it.

This was never meant to alienate or attack anyone, it was simply meant to include everyone who wanted to just shoot the "stuff" about the team casually, the old (though I hate the term) eyeball-test conversations, I guess. I tried to be as careful as I could with the wording of the initial post so that would be clear, and in no way hostile, but I guess I wasn't careful enough.

Anyway, Go Leafs Go?

Good post, I agree.  I myself have been here almost from day one, and for a while now I have only posted once in a while my Reason is as stated above.  I thought this post was a good idea as well, as I to don't want to do math homework to talk Leafs either. I was picked and poked at for a long time for my thoughts when I posted but now I just don't respond to them anymore.

 The solution is simple.  If you don't like the conversation leave the post and go to another.  IMO this poster was not trying to stir the pot, he was only looking for some normal Hockey talk. I was liking this post as it was a very refreshing change until the jealous know it all's jumped in. Again, if you Don't like the conversation go to another post.

[nutman]

Oh ya.... Go Leafs Go.  Lets take this to Boston.

[Chris]

Speaking of being a dick about numbers, was there a statistical model on this earth that had VGK anywhere near what they've accomplished this year?

There was actually at least one model from a prominent stats person that predicted that Vegas could be really good this season... but that was PRIOR to the actual expansion draft and based on Vegas picking guys that the model/fancy stats liked. After the expansion draft that model had them as bad as everyone else figured.

I was very down on Vegas' expansion picks, except for some of the overreacting teams like Florida, or dumb dumb teams like Washington giving up Schmidt.

It's a very interesting case study of players that hockey teams have deemed average-ish to expendable can accomplish simply with more ice time, leash, and a speed-based strategy. It's also hard to say much about a large number of players putting up career numbers at the same time other than congrats on the paycheques.

Bunch of decent players given a chance to prove their prior teams wrong, that can be a dangerous combination as the NHL found out this year. Can they win the Cup - wouldn't that be something? I doubt it but they keep surprising me.

[Chris]

It's not an easy problem to solve.  Rick I have sent you my suggestion which I think would definitely be a start and then we could take it from there.  Honestly if we want to change the culture on this forum we have to start at the top and that means changing the moderation here for the better.  The mods set the tone for the entire board, and if they are acting like pricks then it enables the trolls to run around unfettered.  I was going to keep my thoughts private but I'm putting that out there in the hope that others will agree with me and help foster some positive change for the community here.  For the traffic to drop during the past two years when it has been the most exciting time to be a Leafs fan in over twenty years it tells you something.  Something has to be done IMO.

Uhhh...

Either they can change the moderation or else start banning people like Nik the Trik.

As a general rule for myself, before I try to smear someone in a community, I like to double check that I haven’t behaved in the exact way that I am decrying.

Out of whatever respect you have for me, please reread your own post history and maybe even have a look at where this thread started turning towards baseless accusations.

If I have posted some things out of frustration with the bull#$#% on here, so be it. It seems like most of the other people bothered by this simply refrain from posting or else leave the board entirely. I have had several people contact me via private message with words of support and agreement. For whatever reason I guess they are just not comfortable sharing their thoughts openly here. But there is definitely a problem here. You guys trying to blame the victims or pretending that these issues do not exist is not going to solve anything.

Yeah, you know...I've debated saying anything about this whole issue but I share your feelings on the subject. This place just isn't a very enjoyable community, it seems there is a small core group that likes to talk to each other and everyone else is pretty much ignored (and occasionally met with some hostility and belittling). I looked back at the history (number of posts per year) and it's amazing to see the decrease over the past 5 or so years, as someone said earlier - during a time when the future looks incredibly bright for the Leafs. That speaks volumes in my opinion.

I probably won't be posting anymore once this playoff season ends (I know, everyone will be crying about that ).

[Zee]

You make one jerkish throwaway semi true quip and everyone loses their minds...

Sorry for being a jackass, I thought it was clear I was being obtuse for comedic effect.

You live and you learn.

The mods here do an excellent job compared to most cess pools online, anyone having a pop at them is out to lunch.

We have mods here?