Author Topic: The Donald  (Read 103630 times)

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Offline Chris

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1395 on: February 15, 2018, 05:08:47 PM »
I spend about 4 months each winter in Arizona and golf daily with whoever they pair me up with.  Last year I had a daily conversations with Americans about Politics and they were from both sides of the spectrum.  This year I have been here for two months now and have not heard even 5 things said about Politics.  It seems few are even paying attention to the mess that is occurring and are kinda turned away as if that means it is isn't happening because they aren't looking??  Will be interesting to see how that changes in a couple years as next election approaches.

It's kind of like - what's the point anymore? Everyone is so polarized and unwilling to consider any opposing viewpoints, so trying to talk about this stuff is like banging your head against a wall. I've basically given up on such topics as guns, climate change, etc. The gun violence here has gotten so ridiculous and pervasive, that events like yesterday hardly even register anymore. "Oh, another school shooting? How many killed? 17? OK." Both sides will trot out their standard talking points, no one will listen, and we'll repeat the same process again and again.

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1395 on: February 15, 2018, 05:08:47 PM »

Offline Bates

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1396 on: February 15, 2018, 06:04:38 PM »
Had a gun conversation earlier this week.  It started with me saying that my Wife doesn't like AZ and seeing people with guns is a large part of it.  The guys from Denver said they understand as in Colorado you have to cover your gun???  Yeah that solves it??  They just think differently than most Canadians in regards to guns and healthcare as two big examples.


I spend about 4 months each winter in Arizona and golf daily with whoever they pair me up with.  Last year I had a daily conversations with Americans about Politics and they were from both sides of the spectrum.  This year I have been here for two months now and have not heard even 5 things said about Politics.  It seems few are even paying attention to the mess that is occurring and are kinda turned away as if that means it is isn't happening because they aren't looking??  Will be interesting to see how that changes in a couple years as next election approaches.

It's kind of like - what's the point anymore? Everyone is so polarized and unwilling to consider any opposing viewpoints, so trying to talk about this stuff is like banging your head against a wall. I've basically given up on such topics as guns, climate change, etc. The gun violence here has gotten so ridiculous and pervasive, that events like yesterday hardly even register anymore. "Oh, another school shooting? How many killed? 17? OK." Both sides will trot out their standard talking points, no one will listen, and we'll repeat the same process again and again.

Offline Bender

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1397 on: February 15, 2018, 06:13:13 PM »
If America had two things it vehemently hates: Less social stratification and single payer healthcare a huge portion of their current problems would be solved. Instead you have poor, disaffected people who need help who have easy access to lethal weapons.

I give up. America had turned its back on all logic. Rome isn't burning, it's being sacked.
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Offline Bates

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1398 on: February 15, 2018, 06:25:10 PM »
I meet a lot of people who think that the idea of paying for someone else's healthcare is nothing short of full blown socialism. The same folks then later tell me of the horrible story of how much a co-pay medical treatment cost them??? Sometimes I explain the single payer would actually help even them but most times I just laugh inside. 
If America had two things it vehemently hates: Less social stratification and single payer healthcare a huge portion of their current problems would be solved. Instead you have poor, disaffected people who need help who have easy access to lethal weapons.

I give up. America had turned its back on all logic. Rome isn't burning, it's being sacked.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1399 on: February 15, 2018, 07:02:04 PM »
It's kind of like - what's the point anymore? Everyone is so polarized and unwilling to consider any opposing viewpoints, so trying to talk about this stuff is like banging your head against a wall. I've basically given up on such topics as guns, climate change, etc. The gun violence here has gotten so ridiculous and pervasive, that events like yesterday hardly even register anymore. "Oh, another school shooting? How many killed? 17? OK." Both sides will trot out their standard talking points, no one will listen, and we'll repeat the same process again and again.

I don't really think it's fair to "both sides" this issue. If the two sides can be broadly described as people who want the USA to have more gun control laws and people who don't then I genuinely don't know what points you think the people who don't want more gun control laws are making that aren't being considered/listened to.

I'm both a gun owner and am fairly well versed in the political writings and philosophies of America's founding fathers. So I'm both sympathetic to the idea of gun ownership as a right as a practical matter as well as the underlying rationale behind it.

So when the "we don't need more gun control" crowd speak I think their arguments are heard, the problem is their arguments aren't very good or, when they are, they seem to be less legitimately held positions than they are deflections away from the fact that they take millions of dollars in contributions from an advocacy group that seems primarily interested in the selling of weapons.

I mean, take the idea that often gets trotted out that it isn't a gun ownership/availability problem but rather an issue of mental health. Well, ok, so where is the Republican plan to improve mental health services?

Instead what the Republicans have done is prevented, by law, the CDC studying gun violence as a public health issue. If there are ways to stop gun violence beyond fewer guns the party that thinks gun control laws are fine as is has banned the government from finding them out.

So I really don't think this is a case of "both sides" being equally obstinate. One side seems genuinely interested in finding a solution and the other seems determined from preventing a discussion from even taking place.
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Offline Chris

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1400 on: February 15, 2018, 08:31:28 PM »
So I really don't think this is a case of "both sides" being equally obstinate. One side seems genuinely interested in finding a solution and the other seems determined from preventing a discussion from even taking place.
I would agree with that. I am just so damned frustrated with what my country has become that I can't even express myself clearly anymore. The worst part is that I cannot see any way out of it, short of another civil or world war.

I meet a lot of people who think that the idea of paying for someone else's healthcare is nothing short of full blown socialism. The same folks then later tell me of the horrible story of how much a co-pay medical treatment cost them??? Sometimes I explain the single payer would actually help even them but most times I just laugh inside.
It's pretty ridiculous, isn't it? Those same people drive on roads that are paid for by taxes (socialism), will gladly take FEMA assistance when a natural disaster strikes (socialism), and certainly will be collecting SOCIAL security when they can.

The concern with single payer healthcare is that the government would make a mess of it or there would be massive fraud (like with medicare currently) but it's going to happen eventually. Better sooner than later.

Offline bustaheims

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1401 on: February 15, 2018, 08:37:37 PM »
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/374086-rubio-someone-who-wants-to-commit-a-shooting-will-find-a-way-to-get-the-gun

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Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said Thursday that gun control legislation wouldn’t have prevented the mass shooting at a Florida high school, saying that those want to commit shootings “will find a way to get the gun to do it.”

And, here begins the "gun control won't fix everything, so let's not do anything" progression that always seems to follow these events.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1402 on: February 15, 2018, 08:57:53 PM »
http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/374086-rubio-someone-who-wants-to-commit-a-shooting-will-find-a-way-to-get-the-gun

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Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) said Thursday that gun control legislation wouldn’t have prevented the mass shooting at a Florida high school, saying that those want to commit shootings “will find a way to get the gun to do it.”

And, here begins the "gun control won't fix everything, so let's not do anything" progression that always seems to follow these events.

I just don't get the thought process there though. I'm an adult with a fair amount of cash at my disposal who owns guns and I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to begin if I wanted to buy an illegal gun. Honestly, if I decided to shoot up an office building tomorrow I wouldn't have a clue what to do short of googling "how to buy an assault rifle".

But to Rubio, a 19 year old loner is going to figure out how to navigate the black market for whatever they want.
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1403 on: February 15, 2018, 09:08:08 PM »
I just don't get the thought process there though. I'm an adult with a fair amount of cash at my disposal who owns guns and I wouldn't have the slightest idea where to begin if I wanted to buy an illegal gun. Honestly, if I decided to shoot up an office building tomorrow I wouldn't have a clue what to do short of googling "how to buy an assault rifle".

But to Rubio, a 19 year old loner is going to figure out how to navigate the black market for whatever they want.

Oh, I know. It's a ridiculous argument. It's not like you can just stumble into the black market. Career criminals and such might be able to, but, very very few of those behind these mass shootings have that kind of history - especially school shooters. They've almost all picked up their guns legally or through gun show loopholes. It's really not a coincidence that countries that have stricter gun controls don't experience anywhere near the number of mass shootings as the US does - these incidents can very much be mitigated through making it harder to get guns and limiting the types of guns available to the average person.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline Arn

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1404 on: February 16, 2018, 06:10:46 AM »
Australia literally proves that introducing gun controls can make a difference.

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/10/australia-gun-control/541710/

Quote
On April 28, 1996, a 28-year-old Australian man named Martin Bryant ate lunch at Broad Arrow Cafe in Port Arthur, Tasmania, a historic penal colony that is a popular tourist resort. After his meal, he returned his tray, removed a semiautomatic rifle from his bag, and opened fire. By the time Bryant was caught a day later, 35 people were dead and 23 wounded in what became the worst mass shooting in Australian history—one whose impact is felt even today.

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He noted that, among other things, the Australian government “banned automatic and semiautomatic firearms, adopted new licensing requirements, established a national firearms registry, and instituted a 28-day waiting period for gun purchases. It also bought and destroyed more than 600,000 civilian-owned firearms, in a scheme that cost half a billion dollars and was funded by raising taxes.”

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There was widespread opposition at the time to the legislation. Queensland and Tasmania, where the massacre occurred, were traditionally opposed to any gun-control legislation.

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The number of mass shootings in Australia—defined as incidents in which a gunman killed five or more people other than himself, which is notably a higher casualty count than is generally applied for tallying mass shootings in the U.S.—dropped from 13 in the 18-year period before 1996 to zero after the Port Arthur massacre. Between 1995 and 2006, gun-related homicides and suicides in the country dropped by 59 percent and 65 percent, respectively, though these declines appear to have since leveled off.
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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1405 on: February 17, 2018, 08:19:16 AM »
The key differencess between Canada & the United States in gun ownership.  Among these:

Virtually every gun used in an American mass shooting is legally available for purchase in Canada. Despite this, Canada doesn’t come close to suffering the same rate of mass shootings as the United States.

Whenever Americans discuss gun control, it’s only natural that they look to the policies of their much less bullet-riddled northern neighbour. But even Canadian law can only do so much.

Below, an analysis of just what Canadian firearms policies could have done to stop some of America’s worst mass shootings.

First, some basics

Nobody legally buys a gun in Canada without first taking the Canadian Firearms Safety Course. Then, they have to submit an application for a Possession and Acquistion Licence (PAL), where they’re screened by the RCMP for risk factors such as criminal history and mental health.

Guns and many types of semi-automatic rifles that can only be legally owned for the purposes of target shooting. With very few exceptions, private firearms are not sold as “weapons” in Canada. The only legal reason for owning a firearm in Canada is as a tool to kill animals or as a piece of sporting equipment to shoot paper targets. This is in sharp contrast to the United States, where gun ownership is closely correlated with self-defence.

The semi-automatic pistol is prohibited in Canada, which means it cannot be legally owned except under special conditions...firearms...originally purchased anonymously from unlicensed sellers at...gun shows. These types of sales are not permitted in Canada.

 The Canadian screening process is not airtight, of course. Filing a PAL is much like submitting a tax return: A criminal can simply lie and cross their fingers that nobody notices. Organized crime already knows this, which is why Canada has a documented problem with “straw man” purchases: A criminal successfully obtains a restricted PAL and proceeds to buy up scores of handguns for distribution to criminal networks.

One hard-to-quantify effect of Canadian firearms screening is how many unstable individuals simply never bother to apply. The application form asks applicants to specify their conjugal status, for instance, and implies that police will be calling up exes. “Anyone with an angry ex isn’t going to get a (possession licence) for example,”one firearms instructor told the National Post. Canada has anonymous hotlines by which friends or neighbours can call a Canadian’s firearms licence into question. Canadian Firearms Safety Course instructors are also told by RCMP to report any students in their classes who seem suspicious. A bit Orwellian, perhaps, but it’s one of several ways in which Canada is able collar the kinds of would-be mass murderers with clean criminal records that U.S. law finds so hard to stop.


Long, long article going over each of the mass killings perpetrated by the shooters involved, their circumstances, etc., and how each of these situations differs or compares as per the Canadian checks & balances of probability.


http://nationalpost.com/news/canada/would-canadian-gun-laws-have-stopped-americas-worst-mass-shooters

Offline cabber24

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1406 on: February 22, 2018, 11:10:41 AM »
Give guns to teachers...  His buffonery knows no bounds.
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Offline Bender

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1407 on: February 22, 2018, 11:22:28 AM »
Give guns to teachers...  His buffonery knows no bounds.

'Murica! Pretty soon the answer will be to have everyone armed and ready to shoot at all times. Shoot first, ask questions later, I always say!
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Offline Arn

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1408 on: February 22, 2018, 12:55:14 PM »
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

Offline cabber24

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1409 on: February 22, 2018, 01:05:10 PM »
Give guns to teachers...  His buffonery knows no bounds.

'Murica! Pretty soon the answer will be to have everyone armed and ready to shoot at all times. Shoot first, ask questions later, I always say!
For any sane person living in USA that may have to be a unfortunate consideration for protection.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1409 on: February 22, 2018, 01:05:10 PM »