Author Topic: The Donald  (Read 114417 times)

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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1155 on: September 25, 2017, 11:05:56 AM »
When he does this (picking fights with celebrities, or whatever), he's basically masking some other garbage he is doing or actual work he is not doing. For example, Puerto Rico is in dire straits. Mueller's investigation into Manafort's dealings is ramping up significantly. I'm pretty sure he has zero involvement in the healthcare bill that the GOP is trying to get through to kill off their opposing voter base, which is probably for the better, insofar as his involvement is concerned.

I think you're giving him too much credit here. Yeah, sure, Bush and Rove I think were capable of that sort of misdirection. I don't think Trump really gives much serious thought to the positive or negative consequences of his statements. He just likes it when people cheer for him at rallies and he knew this was some red meat he could throw these people. I don't think there are any Trump supporters who, absent what happened yesterday, would really give a damn about Puerto Rico or Mueller.
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Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1156 on: September 25, 2017, 11:07:31 AM »
Fuller statement from Shilton:



It's still a problem to me that he views kneeling as disrespectful to the military when it's literally the opposite. I mean, I'd like to see him try and have a conversation about that with people from the Seattle Seahawks who released this statement on why they no-showed:


TMLfans.ca

Re: The Donald
« Reply #1156 on: September 25, 2017, 11:07:31 AM »

Offline Frank E

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1157 on: September 25, 2017, 11:08:09 AM »
I think you can think that kneeling during the anthem can be seen as disrespectful to some, but also respect the right to protest and kneel during the anthem.

I doesn't have to be one or the other.

Offline CarltonTheBear

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1158 on: September 25, 2017, 11:10:51 AM »

I don't disagree with this either. Reporters are focusing on the wrong issue in regards to this topic.

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1159 on: September 25, 2017, 11:11:05 AM »
He's a 20-year-old from Arizona, I'm certain he has been raised to have that attitude.

The fact though that he recognizes people's right to protest, regardless of his own feelings, is important.

Yup. The important part of his POV is that, in spite of his disagreement with the style of protest, he absolutely recognizes and agrees with the right players like Kaepernik have to do so. There's a big difference between saying "I wouldn't do that" and "You shouldn't do that."

Exactly, but people will drag him over the coals for not giving what they consider a perfect answer and that's indicative of the problems in the political climate right now.

For a lot of people, acknowledging the right to protest is not enough, if you don't support their ideas 100% you are the enemy and they'll twist what's said to make you look like the enemy.

I think it's that kind of attitude that led a portion of moderates to vote for a guy like Trump, they were sick of being called the bad guy when they largely considered themselves moderates, they just didn't agree with the entire platform on the left and that made them personae non gratae. I think the majority of these people now deeply regret their vote.

To be clear, I'm a European liberal, the Democrats would be right-wing were I'm from, I think it's important to consider other people's motivations though.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1160 on: September 25, 2017, 11:11:59 AM »
He's a 20-year-old from Arizona, I'm certain he has been raised to have that attitude.

The fact though that he recognizes people's right to protest, regardless of his own feelings, is important.

I'm not inclined to look to a 20 year old kid on this one and really drag him over his opinion but this is an insanely low bar. "Sure, I think he's wrong on substance but you have to give him credit for acknowledging one of the basic precepts of a free society"?

Granted yesterday revealed that there are a lot of people, including the President of the United States, who wouldn't clear that bar but still.
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Offline Frank E

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1161 on: September 25, 2017, 11:16:14 AM »

I don't disagree with this either. Reporters are focusing on the wrong issue in regards to this topic.

Oh good, we're back to blaming the media. 

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1162 on: September 25, 2017, 11:20:24 AM »

From Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail":

Quote
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.

and

Quote
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.
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Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1163 on: September 25, 2017, 11:34:41 AM »

From Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail":

Quote
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.

and

Quote
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

What is your point?

You think the average "undecided" voter now has the same societal outlook as one in the 1960's?

I don't get the urge to vilify, if the path to enlightenment is 100 steps, why berate the person on step 50 instead of helping to guide them along the path?

Of course, if people are unwilling to listen, that deserves ridicule.

Offline Bill_Berg

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1164 on: September 25, 2017, 11:47:13 AM »

From Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail":

Quote
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.

and

Quote
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

What is your point?

You think the average "undecided" voter now has the same societal outlook as one in the 1960's?

I don't get the urge to vilify, if the path to enlightenment is 100 steps, why berate the person on step 50 instead of helping to guide them along the path?

Of course, if people are unwilling to listen, that deserves ridicule.

I think the point is that some people on step 50 think they've gone far enough.

Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1165 on: September 25, 2017, 11:52:50 AM »

From Martin Luther King's "Letter from a Birmingham Jail":

Quote
Nonviolent direct action seeks to create such a crisis and foster such a tension that a community which has constantly refused to negotiate is forced to confront the issue. It seeks so to dramatize the issue that it can no longer be ignored. My citing the creation of tension as part of the work of the nonviolent resister may sound rather shocking. But I must confess that I am not afraid of the word "tension." I have earnestly opposed violent tension, but there is a type of constructive, nonviolent tension which is necessary for growth.

and

Quote
First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro's great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen's Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man's freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a "more convenient season." Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

What is your point?

You think the average "undecided" voter now has the same societal outlook as one in the 1960's?

I don't get the urge to vilify, if the path to enlightenment is 100 steps, why berate the person on step 50 instead of helping to guide them along the path?

Of course, if people are unwilling to listen, that deserves ridicule.

I think the point is that some people on step 50 think they've gone far enough.

Of course and I addressed that, but if they've come this far, try to help them come the whole way instead of labeling them monsters and turning them the other way.

Of course, there will be those that don't listen and deserve contempt, but all too often people are quick to dismiss others who don't, at the moment, agree with them wholeheartedly.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1166 on: September 25, 2017, 11:57:49 AM »
What is your point?

Well, I think King's point there was two-fold. One, that the purpose of non-violent protest is not to be gentle or to assuage the sensibilities of moderate people. Rather that direct action that is specifically designed to afflict the comfortable is meant to take a form that can't be easily ignored.

Secondly, I think what King was saying was the people who, when confronted with protests that make them uncomfortable, take primary issue with the method of protest as opposed to the injustice being faced tend to be people who, when not disrupted by said protest, tend to also not be actively seeking to upend injustice. They're people who may give lip service to positive change, don't actually fight for it. To borrow your metaphor I think what King was saying was that there are a lot of people who get up to step 50 and choose to enjoy the view rather than keep on climbing and he found those people more challenging than the extreme few who didn't try at all.

And, you know, I'd like to agree with you when you sort of incredulously ask me if I think we haven't made just tons of tons of progress since King but this last year has raised doubts for me. America responded to its first black President by electing the first overtly racist President since...I don't even know. Even Nixon was racist in private.
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Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1167 on: September 25, 2017, 12:04:38 PM »
I think the point is that some people on step 50 think they've gone far enough.

Yeah, that's part of it. But I also think the first part there is about misconceptions about the best way to, to abandon the metaphor, spur people to action. I think there's an unfortunate sanitizing of people like King by people who think that he was about friendly pats on the back and handholding and gentle encouragement to win people over with ideas and that eventually his eloquence and optimism won out whereas I think if you really read him rather than sanctify him you see he felt people needed to be pushed.

I'm no expert in King or the Civil Rights movement in general but I think it's important to read things like Letter from a Birmingham Jail and see just how frustrated someone like King was with the idea that you should be super-patient with people who have the privilege of being a "moderate" on issues that so drastically affect people's lives.
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Offline WhatIfGodWasALeaf

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1168 on: September 25, 2017, 12:08:44 PM »
What is your point?

Well, I think King's point there was two-fold. One, that the purpose of non-violent protest is not to be gentle or to assuage the sensibilities of moderate people. Rather that direct action that is specifically designed to afflict the comfortable is meant to take a form that can't be easily ignored.

Secondly, I think what King was saying was the people who, when confronted with protests that make them uncomfortable, take primary issue with the method of protest as opposed to the injustice being faced tend to be people who, when not disrupted by said protest, tend to also not be actively seeking to upend injustice. They're people who may give lip service to positive change, don't actually fight for it. To borrow your metaphor I think what King was saying was that there are a lot of people who get up to step 50 and choose to enjoy the view rather than keep on climbing and he found those people more challenging than the extreme few who didn't try at all.

And, you know, I'd like to agree with you when you sort of incredulously ask me if I think we haven't made just tons of tons of progress since King but this last year has raised doubts for me. America responded to its first black President by electing the first overtly racist President since...I don't even know. Even Nixon was racist in private.

Thank you for expanding and I don't disagree with any of that.

What I have a problem with though is just retreating back into our "teams" and refusing to talk to those who don't agree with us, society has never progressed that way.

As you said this past year has been a disaster, it's also been encouraging to see so many people step up and speak out about what they believe is right.

I honestly don't know many people who were "on step 50" that have looked at what has happened this past year and have passively just shrugged it off.

The majority of right-minded people are appalled at what is happening.

Lastly, the Electoral College elected Trump, more people voted against him than voted for him, it might be splitting hairs, but in these times where it's easy to be cynical, cling to that.

My hope is that young people and most reasonable people will have been mobilized by the absurdity of 45 and they'll show their power in the coming midterms.

Although, with citizens united still on the books, I'm not sure how realistic it is.

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: The Donald
« Reply #1169 on: September 25, 2017, 12:32:24 PM »
What I have a problem with though is just retreating back into our "teams" and refusing to talk to those who don't agree with us, society has never progressed that way.

Right, ok. I mainly agree with that. Where I guess we might disagree is whether the tone of that ongoing conversation needs to be more about the subtle art of persuasion as opposed to the forceful emphasis of how badly change is needed.

To be clear, I don't think that's an easy answer because I agree the first is more politic but I sometimes think that a lot of what we see wrong now is the result of trying to be politic as opposed to conveying the immediacy of a need for positive change. While I sympathize with the argument for political considerations I also don't think you want to then come down on the side of tone-policing the people who are on the front lines of the struggle.
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