Author Topic: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular  (Read 34961 times)

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Offline L K

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 08:34:35 AM »
NBA players...underpaid...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/magazine/2011/11/10/grange_underpaid/

While I'm certainly not a fan of the owners on this one, ummm, NO, Grange, they aren't underpaid.  In fact a good number of them are considerably overpaid for their actual abilities.  While a team might be willing to pay James a little more than otherwise, it's telling when Kobe wouldn't sign in Europe because noone would give him the money he wanted.

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2011, 08:34:35 AM »

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2011, 02:01:07 PM »
While I'm certainly not a fan of the owners on this one, ummm, NO, Grange, they aren't underpaid.  In fact a good number of them are considerably overpaid for their actual abilities.  While a team might be willing to pay James a little more than otherwise, it's telling when Kobe wouldn't sign in Europe because noone would give him the money he wanted.

Look past the attention grabbing headline and it's just a pretty simple and true statement about what James got as a free agent/what most players get as free agents vs. what they'd get in a free market.

It's basically someone imagining that pro sports leagues were run like basically every other business instead of the weird little cabal they are.
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Offline Potvin29

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2011, 09:59:34 AM »
Tentative agreement reached: http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=381316

Offline L K

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2011, 10:08:51 AM »
Tentative agreement reached: http://www.tsn.ca/nba/story/?id=381316

Interesting that they manage to start their season right with their big TV broadcast special on Christmas Day.  Hopefully Colangelo doesn't do anything stupid with the roster now, draft high again this year and reap the rewards of lots of cap space + Val + new draft pick next year.

Offline Deebo

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2011, 11:56:57 AM »
I'm interested to see if the owners got a hard cap.

Hopefully this will mean Eric Smith and Paul Jones will stop talking about hockey now.

Offline Trolloc

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2011, 01:03:03 PM »
NBA players...underpaid...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/magazine/2011/11/10/grange_underpaid/

My father's a business owner and I have a more favourable opinion of owners then most people. My father has had issues in the past where employees wanted unionization. My father is in his 60's, been in business for over 30 years, ran two different companies that ultimately failed. To run his current business at times he had to take a larger mortgage or borrow money from people. When funds in the company were  low he would take money from his pocket to pay his guys. After 30 years of pinching pennies, my father lives a great life now. Drives a nice truck, lives in a million dollar home...all while never taking one penny out of his company. My point is, at one time some employees saw his nice truck\house and painted him as a greedy man using his employees muscle to live a great life. People tend to forget that the owner takes a great deal of risk, investing large sums of money and if the business doesn't work out, it would have a serious negative impact on them.

The relationship has to go both ways. Players disserve to be paid a fair amount of money, but, we can't forget the owners made the investment and take on 100% of the risk and the owners also couldn't make money without the players
One thing I learned too, no matter what you pay your employees...they will always feel they're worth more. It is a tricky situation with the NHL/NBA/NFL. With my father's employee it made me angry the guys that tried for unionization because, in my father's field, there are hundreds of companies. If you feel undercompensated it is easy to find other work. With these athletes, where do they go? Europe? Russia? Where they will make 50% less than they would make in North America. It is a really tricky situation. On one hand, we paint the players as greedy but the balance of power is with the owners. On the other, owners take all the risk, aren't they entitled to more money?

It is one of those issues that I am still trying to figure out.

Offline seahawk

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #21 on: November 26, 2011, 11:50:27 PM »
10 year deal with the option for either side to opt out after 6. 4 or 5 year contract limits are a bit of a win for the owners, if only to save them from themselves. NHLPA should take note because I think this will come up in the next CBA. 66 game schedule starting with a Christmas Day triple-header featuring Mavs-Heat. I'm not going to call either side a winner other than the fans.

Online hockeyfan1

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2011, 05:23:03 AM »
NBA players...underpaid...

http://www.sportsnet.ca/magazine/2011/11/10/grange_underpaid/

My father's a business owner and I have a more favourable opinion of owners then most people. My father has had issues in the past where employees wanted unionization. My father is in his 60's, been in business for over 30 years, ran two different companies that ultimately failed. To run his current business at times he had to take a larger mortgage or borrow money from people. When funds in the company were  low he would take money from his pocket to pay his guys. After 30 years of pinching pennies, my father lives a great life now. Drives a nice truck, lives in a million dollar home...all while never taking one penny out of his company. My point is, at one time some employees saw his nice truck\house and painted him as a greedy man using his employees muscle to live a great life. People tend to forget that the owner takes a great deal of risk, investing large sums of money and if the business doesn't work out, it would have a serious negative impact on them.

The relationship has to go both ways. Players disserve to be paid a fair amount of money, but, we can't forget the owners made the investment and take on 100% of the risk and the owners also couldn't make money without the players
One thing I learned too, no matter what you pay your employees...they will always feel they're worth more. It is a tricky situation with the NHL/NBA/NFL. With my father's employee it made me angry the guys that tried for unionization because, in my father's field, there are hundreds of companies. If you feel undercompensated it is easy to find other work. With these athletes, where do they go? Europe? Russia? Where they will make 50% less than they would make in North America. It is a really tricky situation. On one hand, we paint the players as greedy but the balance of power is with the owners. On the other, owners take all the risk, aren't they entitled to more money?

It is one of those issues that I am still trying to figure out.



I understand where you're coming from.  My parents were (small-medium sized business owners too, quite successful, and extremely lucky to even have had a business in the first place (clothing).  We, as a family, and as business owners at the time, learned just how much effort it takes to run even a small business, all the details, and paying the employees ( as generous as my parents were), etc.


I can empathize up to a point with the owners, in the sports vernacular, but then again, as compared to the general business populace, many of these owners are plenty wealthy, otherwise they wouldn't even have bothered to have a franchise in the first place.


Of course, here's so much more than just owning a franchise -- revenue & profits from other sources of revenue tied or not tied in to the sport in question -- which one can say that the owners are probably entitled to more money, as you state.


Then, on the other hand.....
« Last Edit: November 27, 2011, 05:24:40 AM by hockeyfan1 »

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #23 on: November 28, 2011, 09:09:34 AM »

Both of you are trying to compare experiences with small/medium sized businesses where employees have, I'm guessing, very little in the way of leverage to NBA franchises. There's not much similarity there. The owners "risk" usually amounts to a small portion of a much larger fortune. Labour are millionaire celebrities. Owners often operate their businesses as if making money is an after thought or a smaller consideration considering their larger ventures.
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Offline Rob

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #24 on: November 28, 2011, 09:22:26 AM »

Both of you are trying to compare experiences with small/medium sized businesses where employees have, I'm guessing, very little in the way of leverage to NBA franchises. There's not much similarity there. The owners "risk" usually amounts to a small portion of a much larger fortune. Labour are millionaire celebrities. Owners often operate their businesses as if making money is an after thought or a smaller consideration considering their larger ventures.

Then go play basketball somewhere else. 

Oh, there is no where else to play basketball for what I'm offering you?


Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2011, 09:48:31 AM »
Then go play basketball somewhere else. 

Oh, there is no where else to play basketball for what I'm offering you?

Sorry, are you having an imaginary conversation with me where I'm an NBA player?
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Online hockeyfan1

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2011, 11:27:47 AM »

Both of you are trying to compare experiences with small/medium sized businesses where employees have, I'm guessing, very little in the way of leverage to NBA franchises. There's not much similarity there. The owners
 "risk" usually amounts to a small portion of a much larger
 fortune. Labour are millionaire celebrities. Owners often
operate their businesses as if making money is an after
thought or a smaller consideration considering their larger
ventures.
 

I stated ... "but then again, as compared to the general  business populace, many of these owners are plenty wealthy, otherwise they wouldn't even have bothered to have (had) a franchise in the first place".

Of course, small/medium-sized businesses/owners, etc., and sports franchise owners, in this case the NBA, are two different worlds, apart from the other, with little similarity.  In no way would I imply that they are all similar (hence my statement in quotatins above).

Offline Rob

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2011, 11:48:04 AM »
Then go play basketball somewhere else. 

Oh, there is no where else to play basketball for what I'm offering you?

Sorry, are you having an imaginary conversation with me where I'm an NBA player?

Not really directed at you, but it comes down to, there are owners of sports teams who get tired of their toy costing them too much money.

These people didn't become wealthy by being stupid with their money, and it comes to a point where enough is enough. 

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2011, 08:25:29 PM »
Not really directed at you, but it comes down to, there are owners of sports teams who get tired of their toy costing them too much money.

These people didn't become wealthy by being stupid with their money, and it comes to a point where enough is enough.

I wasn't advocating for the players there. I was just saying that these businesses aren't particularly comparable to small businesses being run by people for their livelihoods.

The issue is, for me, whether or not owners of teams should redress their own poor management by means of collective bargaining. Nobody holds guns to their heads as they spend the money they do on their toy and if they're smart businessmen they're capable of restraining themselves.
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Offline Trolloc

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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 06:20:48 AM »
Not really directed at you, but it comes down to, there are owners of sports teams who get tired of their toy costing them too much money.

These people didn't become wealthy by being stupid with their money, and it comes to a point where enough is enough.

I wasn't advocating for the players there. I was just saying that these businesses aren't particularly comparable to small businesses being run by people for their livelihoods.

The issue is, for me, whether or not owners of teams should redress their own poor management by means of collective bargaining. Nobody holds guns to their heads as they spend the money they do on their toy and if they're smart businessmen they're capable of restraining themselves.

 It is possible the system is broken and unless owners spend absurd amounts of money they will never get the high end talent. They may be in a situation where it is play by the overspending rules or spend a decade in the basement. That being said, I do agree mismanagement shouldn't come at the players expense. Sometimes the choice is spending big or going home.


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Re: 2011 Toronto Raptors/NBA/Labour Negotiations Spectacular
« Reply #29 on: November 29, 2011, 06:20:48 AM »