Author Topic: The Official Complaint Thread!  (Read 156272 times)

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Offline Tigger

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #150 on: August 13, 2011, 11:51:40 AM »
The problem here is that the violent part of the g20 protests occurred mostly over a fairly limited time frame early on and the police watched their own cars burn while doing absolutely nothing to stop any kind of spread. The peaceful protesters took a pretty huge hit for that and the police are, slowly, being shown to have overstepped in response overall and also seem to have participated in obstructing justice after the fact.

There's an interview with Steve Paikin worth watching, he witnessed some of the events and is a pretty reliable journalist. His take on the crowd was that they were there to say they had a right to be assemble peacefully, nothing much more to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCWNqMV4Bgs

Going through a security check at an airport is a little different from being beaten and falsely arrested, a few bad apples doesn't justify that especially when they seemed to have rolled away unscathed.

Police are just people and they are trained to do what they did in a command structure so I don't have as much of a problem with them as I do the system overall. Like Paikin says at the end of the interview, it was a sad bloody day for democracy.

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Offline Nik

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #151 on: August 13, 2011, 12:24:06 PM »
Unfortunately, that means clamping down on civil liberties. If you're part of the mob and you're not stopping the violence, you're just as guilty as those perpetrating it.

Just for the record, this isn't true by any credible definition of the word guilty.
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Offline You're right

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #152 on: August 13, 2011, 07:56:21 PM »
A/C is not working......not fixed until Monday(maybe) if the fix doesn't work then big dough for a new unit  :-\
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Offline TML fan

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #153 on: August 14, 2011, 05:15:46 AM »
Unfortunately, that means clamping down on civil liberties. If you're part of the mob and you're not stopping the violence, you're just as guilty as those perpetrating it.

Just for the record, this isn't true by any credible definition of the word guilty.

I beg to differ. I believe you're familiar with the concept of mob mentality.

Some of the posters above have commented how the Police were allegedly aware of who was responsible for starting the violence at the time. The Police can't just walk into a crowd like that and start picking people out. The crowd won't know what they're doing and they're likely to view such actions as threatening. It's likely to just add fuel to the fire, rather than prevent a riot.

If you remove the lawful protesters, you remove the opportunity for the criminals to engage in violent activities. They are cowards and don't like to operate without the cover of the law-abiding. I'm not saying it's fair. I'm saying it's the way it is.

Did the peaceful protesters disperse and go home when the violence started? Did they co-operate with Police when they attempted to stop the violence? Not from what I remember. Not leaving when stuff started to go down made it more difficult for the Police to do what they were supposed to, because of mob mentality. That strikes me as an error in judgment, which I think fits the definition of guilty.

At least according to Oxford...
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 05:25:39 AM by TML fan »

Offline TML fan

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #154 on: August 14, 2011, 05:21:57 AM »
The comparison to the UK is that the Police should have come down harder on those protests. Toronto could have been a lot worse than it was, and probably would have been had the Police not done what they did. Those who have been tread on will have their day in court.

No there is no "mostly peaceful protest" provision, there is simply:

Quote
8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.
9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.
10. Everyone has the right on arrest or detention

    (a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
    (b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
    (c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.

12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

This is a nice/scary report on it: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/youshouldhavestayedathome/

There is also this:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

I don't think theft, vandalism, destruction of property, and arson qualify as peaceful activities. Even if only 1% of a protest is involved in such activities, I don't see how you can call such an assembly peaceful.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 05:27:40 AM by TML fan »

Offline Nik

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #155 on: August 14, 2011, 06:43:07 AM »
I beg to differ. I believe you're familiar with the concept of mob mentality.

It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It refers to the way that being in a crowd like that can sometimes get otherwise calm people to get caught up in the tide and do things they otherwise wouldn't do. That's not the issue here you're saying that people who weren't caught up in mob mentality, who were peaceful and law-abiding, are just as guilty as those who were breaking the law by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's not true both in a legal and a moral sense.

Beg to differ all you want, you can't charge someone with proximity to a crime.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 07:08:43 AM by Saint Nik »
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Offline Damian

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #156 on: August 14, 2011, 07:55:00 AM »
I beg to differ. I believe you're familiar with the concept of mob mentality.

It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It refers to the way that being in a crowd like that can sometimes get otherwise calm people to get caught up in the tide and do things they otherwise wouldn't do. That's not the issue here you're saying that people who weren't caught up in mob mentality, who were peaceful and law-abiding, are just as guilty as those who were breaking the law by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's not true both in a legal and a moral sense.

Beg to differ all you want, you can't charge someone with proximity to a crime.

Your right Nik, and to add a bit more, its actually called Convergence Theory....

"Convergence theory holds that crowd behavior is not a product of the crowd itself, but is carried into the crowd by particular individuals. Thus, crowds amount to a convergence of like-minded individuals. In other words, while contagion theory states that crowds cause people to act in a certain way, convergence theory says the opposite: that people who wish to act in a certain way come together to form crowds. An example of convergence theory states that there is no homogeneous activity within a repetitive practice, sometimes observed when an immigrant population becomes common in a previously homogeneous area, and members of the existing community (apparently spontaneously) band together to threaten those trying to move into their neighborhoods. In such cases, convergence theorists contend, the crowd itself does not generate racial hatred or violence; rather, the hostility has been simmering for some time among many local people. A crowd then arises from convergence of people who oppose the presence of these neighbors. Convergence theory claims that crowd behavior as such is not irrational; rather, people in crowds express existing beliefs and values so that the mob reaction is the rational product of widespread popular feeling."

Offline Potvin29

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #157 on: August 14, 2011, 08:05:08 AM »
The comparison to the UK is that the Police should have come down harder on those protests. Toronto could have been a lot worse than it was, and probably would have been had the Police not done what they did. Those who have been tread on will have their day in court.

No there is no "mostly peaceful protest" provision, there is simply:

Quote
8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.
9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.
10. Everyone has the right on arrest or detention

    (a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
    (b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
    (c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.

12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

This is a nice/scary report on it: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/youshouldhavestayedathome/

There is also this:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

I don't think theft, vandalism, destruction of property, and arson qualify as peaceful activities. Even if only 1% of a protest is involved in such activities, I don't see how you can call such an assembly peaceful.

Except much of the police response was to the peaceful protestors and not the violent acts.  It wasn't like there was one huge protest, and when there was violence, the police did nothing to quell it.  Like I said, there is plenty of evidence of them using violent tactics on peaceful protests, even within the 'official protest zone' or whatever it was called.

I highly doubt the fact you were in downtown Toronto during the G20 is evidence enough to reach this 'reasonable limit' and strip you of those Charter rights listed above, which happened to many, many people those days.

The resulting sentences, or lack thereof, are proof enough.

And what about the members of the media?  There have been numerous stories of people with press credentials, who showed police their press credentials, being abused/arrested/both in all of this.  They should be arrested for reporting on the protests because they were there when the protests turned violent?
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 08:07:06 AM by GhostOfPotvin29 »

Offline TML fan

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #158 on: August 14, 2011, 08:30:21 AM »
I beg to differ. I believe you're familiar with the concept of mob mentality.

It doesn't mean what you seem to think it means. It refers to the way that being in a crowd like that can sometimes get otherwise calm people to get caught up in the tide and do things they otherwise wouldn't do. That's not the issue here you're saying that people who weren't caught up in mob mentality, who were peaceful and law-abiding, are just as guilty as those who were breaking the law by virtue of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. That's not true both in a legal and a moral sense.

Beg to differ all you want, you can't charge someone with proximity to a crime.

That's not what I'm saying. By refusing to disperse when the violence erupted, they are guilty of contributing to an environment where the violence would be allowed to continue. I know the definition of the word "guilty". You're the one who seems to think that a particular crime must be involved for the word to apply.

I thought I explained mob mentality in pretty much the same way you just did. That's why the Police can't just go charging into the crowd to arrest those responsible. If the crowd is ignorant of the situation, then that ignorance is going to cause otherwise calm and law-abiding people to question their actions, and the mob mentality would kick in. All it takes is ONE person to start yelling "shame! shame!".

« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 08:50:10 AM by TML fan »

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #159 on: August 14, 2011, 08:47:28 AM »
The comparison to the UK is that the Police should have come down harder on those protests. Toronto could have been a lot worse than it was, and probably would have been had the Police not done what they did. Those who have been tread on will have their day in court.

No there is no "mostly peaceful protest" provision, there is simply:

Quote
8. Everyone has the right to be secure against unreasonable search or seizure.
9. Everyone has the right not to be arbitrarily detained or imprisoned.
10. Everyone has the right on arrest or detention

    (a) to be informed promptly of the reasons therefor;
    (b) to retain and instruct counsel without delay and to be informed of that right; and
    (c) to have the validity of the detention determined by way of habeas corpus and to be released if the detention is not lawful.

12. Everyone has the right not to be subjected to any cruel and unusual treatment or punishment.

This is a nice/scary report on it: http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2010-2011/youshouldhavestayedathome/

There is also this:

1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

I don't think theft, vandalism, destruction of property, and arson qualify as peaceful activities. Even if only 1% of a protest is involved in such activities, I don't see how you can call such an assembly peaceful.

Except much of the police response was to the peaceful protestors and not the violent acts.  It wasn't like there was one huge protest, and when there was violence, the police did nothing to quell it.  Like I said, there is plenty of evidence of them using violent tactics on peaceful protests, even within the 'official protest zone' or whatever it was called.

I highly doubt the fact you were in downtown Toronto during the G20 is evidence enough to reach this 'reasonable limit' and strip you of those Charter rights listed above, which happened to many, many people those days.

The resulting sentences, or lack thereof, are proof enough.

And what about the members of the media?  There have been numerous stories of people with press credentials, who showed police their press credentials, being abused/arrested/both in all of this.  They should be arrested for reporting on the protests because they were there when the protests turned violent?

I've already explained why it's very difficult if not impossible to separate the peaceful protesters from the violent criminals in a crowd like that.

I also never once said that everything they did was above the board, or even that it was right. I believe that curtailing the right of assembly was necessary to prevent further violence, which is CERTAINLY covered in Section 1 of the Charter. I firmly believe that when the violence erupted, that the peaceful, law-abiding protesters had a RESPONSIBILITY to extricate themselves from the area and make way for the Police to apprehend those responsible. From what I can tell, that DID NOT HAPPEN.

Everything else that happened, the stuff with the media, the alleged random arrests...I can't speak to that. As I've said numerous times in these discussions I do not have all the facts and I am not taking the word of oft-sensational media outlets at face value. Everyone will have their day in court, and when the verdict is in, then I will know what to think. The man in the article had his day and he was vindicated. In his case, the Police effed up.

Offline Nik

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #160 on: August 14, 2011, 12:24:44 PM »
That's not what I'm saying. By refusing to disperse when the violence erupted, they are guilty of contributing to an environment where the violence would be allowed to continue. I know the definition of the word "guilty". You're the one who seems to think that a particular crime must be involved for the word to apply.

Leaving aside that there aren't really words to describe how ridiculous  "Sure some people are guilty of actual crimes but the other people are as guilty" is there is no definition of guilty where people who aren't doing something are as responsible as the people who are.

I thought I explained mob mentality in pretty much the same way you just did. That's why the Police can't just go charging into the crowd to arrest those responsible. If the crowd is ignorant of the situation, then that ignorance is going to cause otherwise calm and law-abiding people to question their actions, and the mob mentality would kick in. All it takes is ONE person to start yelling "shame! shame!".

No, you basically described a situation where mob mentality isn't occurring. Where people are not being caught up in a crowd mentality and are still conducting themselves peacefully and within their rights. According to you, though, that makes them just as guilty as people committing crimes. Words fail.
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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #161 on: August 14, 2011, 04:39:15 PM »
That's not what I'm saying. By refusing to disperse when the violence erupted, they are guilty of contributing to an environment where the violence would be allowed to continue. I know the definition of the word "guilty". You're the one who seems to think that a particular crime must be involved for the word to apply.

Leaving aside that there aren't really words to describe how ridiculous  "Sure some people are guilty of actual crimes but the other people are as guilty" is there is no definition of guilty where people who aren't doing something are as responsible as the people who are.

I thought I explained mob mentality in pretty much the same way you just did. That's why the Police can't just go charging into the crowd to arrest those responsible. If the crowd is ignorant of the situation, then that ignorance is going to cause otherwise calm and law-abiding people to question their actions, and the mob mentality would kick in. All it takes is ONE person to start yelling "shame! shame!".

No, you basically described a situation where mob mentality isn't occurring. Where people are not being caught up in a crowd mentality and are still conducting themselves peacefully and within their rights. According to you, though, that makes them just as guilty as people committing crimes. Words fail.

That's not what I've said. I'm sorry your mind won't allow you to see that.
« Last Edit: August 14, 2011, 04:44:33 PM by TML fan »

Offline Tigger

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #162 on: August 14, 2011, 07:04:05 PM »
I've already explained why it's very difficult if not impossible to separate the peaceful protesters from the violent criminals in a crowd like that.

During the majority of the 'black bloc' violence they were not among a crowd of peaceful protesters, they were mostly isolated in plain sight as they smashed windows and lit police cars on fire, there is ample video evidence of this.

Quote
I also never once said that everything they did was above the board, or even that it was right. I believe that curtailing the right of assembly was necessary to prevent further violence which is CERTAINLY covered in Section 1 of the Charter. I firmly believe that when the violence erupted, that the peaceful, law-abiding protesters had a RESPONSIBILITY to extricate themselves from the area and make way for the Police to apprehend those responsible. From what I can tell, that DID NOT HAPPEN.

According to Paikin, from what he saw, that wasn't the case for the most part once the black bloc idiots were done ( and not arrested ) and it was the police who ramped up violence and aggression after the fact, not the other way around. Curtailing the right of assembly is a pretty serious call for a crowd that is actually protesting peacefully.

Fwiw, out of 1100 arrests only 317 charges were laid and 187 of those have since been withdrawn never mind those who have 'had their day in court'.

Too bad my 'Kettling for Dummies' book was rejected, I could have made soooo much money, I even had a snack brand to go with it... 'Kettle Cooked Montebello style Blue Cheese'.

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Offline L K

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #163 on: August 16, 2011, 08:39:53 PM »
Your Toronto mayor:

Quote
Ford’s spokesperson, Adrienne Batra, declined to say whether Ford sees the second batch of nurses the same way he saw the first. “We do not talk to the Toronto Star,” Batra said.

Offline Potvin29

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Re: The Official Temporary Complaint Thread!
« Reply #164 on: August 16, 2011, 08:45:14 PM »
What a petty group of people.