Author Topic: Nobody elected to Baseball HOF  (Read 3964 times)

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Offline A Weekend at Bernier's

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Re: Nobody elected to Baseball HOF
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 06:48:44 AM »
http://www.baseball-reference.com/bullpen/First_Ballot_Hall_of_Famer

A First Ballot Hall of Famer is a player who is elected to the Hall of Fame on their first ballot. The term has become known as a way to symbolize certain Hall of Famers and active players as above the rest.

Alright, but that very list points out that there are many players not on the list better than guys who are. Cy Young isn't on the list, Jim Palmer is. Joe Dimaggio isn't, Kirby Puckett is. Tris Speaker, lifetime .345 hitter(ranking sixth all time) with 3500 hits(fifth), all time MLB leader in doubles and a career WAR of 127.8 that has him as the 6th best position player of all-time, isn't one while Lou Brock, lifetime .293 hitter, career WAR of 42.8 having him as the 224th most valuable position player, is.

It's just not real.

I know what you're saying, but I think it's fair to question your definitiuon of "real" in this instance.  First Ballot is something that is talked about, has some sort of perceived relevance or meaning, and, I would argue, had some impact on the way some baseball writers voted recently.  I would instead say that the notion of "First Ballot" is real, but that it's relevance or importance at the end of the day is debatable.

Also, other references on the matter indicate that the idea of "First Ballot" carrying greater weight didn't start until the 1980's, which is why Cy Young wasn't on the first ballot and someone like Kirby Puckett or Ozzie Smith was.

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Re: Nobody elected to Baseball HOF
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2013, 06:48:44 AM »

Offline Nik Bethune

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Re: Nobody elected to Baseball HOF
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2013, 07:05:03 AM »
I know what you're saying, but I think it's fair to question your definitiuon of "real" in this instance.  First Ballot is something that is talked about, has some sort of perceived relevance or meaning, and, I would argue, had some impact on the way some baseball writers voted recently.  I would instead say that the notion of "First Ballot" is real, but that it's relevance or importance at the end of the day is debatable.

Let's use Robbie Alomar as an example for a second. On Roberto Alomar's first appearance on the ballot he got 73.7 percent of the vote. The next year, when he was elected, he got 90.0% of the vote. Even if you want to attribute the entire difference there to a belief that your vote should be impacted by what year on the ballot someone is and the resulting difference in honor then it's 16.3% of the vote so it's a very, very limited minority that believe it is something that carries weight. By ascribing real weight to the idea that there's a real meaning to it you're disregarding the 68+ percent of people who think Biggio should have gone in and giving enormous weight to that small minority.

In order to have a debate about whether or not someone is "worthy" of first ballot induction you have to first establish that such a thing has a certain standard. Brock, again, made it. Alomar, who had a significantly more valuable career, didn't. There is no consistent standard being applied and there are no defined criteria. That, to me, doesn't register it as being "real" or worthy of debate.

That the HOF vote has been hijacked by idiots who do things like that, or who don't vote for guys like Cal Ripken or Nolan Ryan just so they don't get 100 percent of the vote does not lend it credence.

Also, other references on the matter indicate that the idea of "First Ballot" carrying greater weight didn't start until the 1980's, which is why Cy Young wasn't on the first ballot and someone like Kirby Puckett or Ozzie Smith was.

But that's basically my point. It's something that has been only recently decided, has no criteria or appreciable standard, and bears no relationship to the actual honor.
Nothing can have value without being an object of utility
-Karl Marx

Offline Dappleganger

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Re: Nobody elected to Baseball HOF
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2013, 07:58:01 AM »
Steve Simmons said on TSN 1050 yesterday that he didn't vote for Biggio this year because he didn't feel he was a 'first ballot hall of famer'.

He also said he would probably vote for him in subsequent years because he does believe Biggio should be in the hall of fame.

So obviously there is some bias toward first ballot HOF status.

My opinion: Simmons is an idiot and anyone else who shares that view point on first ballot HOF status. If you're good enough to be in the hall you should get the vote. You're either in or you're not. 

I also want to point out that Simmons only voted 6 out of a possible 10 players for the HOF. It wasn't that there were too many players more deserving (in his mind) than Biggio which is why he didn't vote for him.

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Re: Nobody elected to Baseball HOF
« Reply #32 on: January 11, 2013, 07:58:01 AM »