SCF: Vegas Golden Knights vs. Carolina Hurricanes

[cw]

So lets see what a guy who "couldn't bring it in the playoffs" brought last night:

Marner scores fastest hat trick in Cup Final history for Golden Knights in Game 3 | NHL.com

Forward helps take series lead against Hurricanes, leads playoffs with 28 points

www.nhl.com

The 29-year-old erupted for three goals in the span of 6:10, eclipsing the previous mark of 6:21 set by the legendary Maurice (Rocket) Richard of the Montreal Canadiens 69 years earlier.

Marmer became the first NHL player with four points (three goals, one assist) in a period in the Final.

Marner leads all players this postseason with 28 points (10 goals, 18 assists), eight ahead of Eichel and 11 in front of Howden and Carolina’s Taylor Hall. It’s the most by a Golden Knights player in a single postseason, two more than Eichel had in 2023, when Vegas won the Stanley Cup.

On this special night, there were a number of other milestones Marner reached.

-- He became only the seventh player in NHL history to score a natural hat trick in the Stanley Cup Final. The others: Sam Reinhart (Game 6, 2025); Gordie Howe (Game 5, 1955); Ted Lindsay (Game 2, 1955), Sid Smith (Game 2, 1949), Maurice Richard (Game 2, 1944), and Newsy Lalonde (Game 2, 1919).

-- With 28 points, Marner surpassed Frank Mahovlich (27 points; 14 goals, 13 assists with Montreal, 1971) for the most playoff points by a player during his first season with a franchise, having come over in a sign-and-trade from the Toronto Maple Leafs on July 1.

-- He became the first Vegas player to record multiple four-point games in a single postseason.

-- He matched the fourth-most points by a player through the first three games of a Stanley Cup Final with seven, trailing only Foyston (nine in 1919), Alf Skinner (eight in 1918) and Wayne Gretzky (eight in 1988).

There are at least 2 more games to be played, if Marner (1.47ppg) scores one more point, the following are the only five Conn Smythe forward winners who put up more points in a 4 round playoff season:
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Connor McDavid
Evgeni Malkin
Joe Sakic

Dmen MacInnis and Leetch put up 31 and 34 pts as Conn Smythe winners.
Only 3 Conn Smythe forward winners have a better +/- than his +16, and two dmen (Robinson & Leetch)
His playoff effort this season is getting into some lofty territory

It is not like everything is going in for him either (though one of his goals was an own goal last night)
Game 2 against Colorado, he got in alone on their goalie three times and didn't score
Game 2 in this series, he hit the crossbar or that game was over.
He got stopped on another breakaway and on a penalty shot last night
etc.

What he's doing is pretty remarkable ... that was a special game by Marner

This series is nuts.
I expected to see top notch defense. Wrong. Many errors.
Vegas only has the edge - it is a long way from over. Carolina is not out of it.
It certainly isn't boring.

 

[4EVRLEAFAN]

Hockey gods smiling on Vegas,

 

[Joe S.]

Here's the thing - you can put out all the stats you like in support of Marner, and by and large I thought he was (just) ok in the playoffs for the leafs . But put that aside, here's what I think is insane about this 10 year leafs run - not once did any individual player go nuts and have a breakout playoff performance. Not a single player from 1-24. Not the goalie, not a forward not a defenceman. Like I honestly truly believed that O'Reilly was going to be that player... Nope.

That's just crazy. You'd think with that kind of long run someone would have broken out, but not a single player. And 'core 4' aside, it think that's the biggest indictment of the team. And what drives me crazy is that I can't point to anything specific that caused this.

 

[cw]

Here's the thing - you can put out all the stats you like in support of Marner, and by and large I thought he was (just) ok in the playoffs for the leafs . But put that aside, here's what I think is insane about this 10 year leafs run - not once did any individual player go nuts and have a breakout playoff performance. Not a single player from 1-24. Not the goalie, not a forward not a defenceman. Like I honestly truly believed that O'Reilly was going to be that player... Nope.

That's just crazy. You'd think with that kind of long run someone would have broken out, but not a single player. And 'core 4' aside, it think that's the biggest indictment of the team. And what drives me crazy is that I can't point to anything specific that caused this.

I think McCrimmon's explanation was close to right - certainly a hunk of it
We talked about it on this site ages ago when debating the core 4 contracts consuming the cap and hurting the depth of the team. And full disclosure: I defended a bunch of those contracts ... (maybe too much so)

Our Leafs did not have great goaltending
Our Leafs did not have a great D
Our Leafs did not have a great bottom 6

The top 6 had to compensate for that.
Only one line in the top 6 was good two ways.

So all the Leafs opponent had to focus on was mainly the top 3 first line - which could never completely break out when the opponent's focus was on them defensively. They would put up some points - couldn't be stifled completely. But they were reduced by that opponent's D being able to focus on them.

Marner himself gave credit for his performance to his linemates and team
They have Eichel's line
They have Marner's line
Until last night, they have had Stone with Hertl
They have a decent/ok 4th line.
All are good defensively. So they have 2 2/3rds - pretty good lines two ways.

Leafs had 1 2/3rds pretty good lines with only one line good two ways.
When your team is lacking defensively, the top line had to be more careful and it curtailed them offensively.

When an opponent can focus on one line to defend, that one line will have a tough time breaking out over a 7 game series.
We saw that repeatedly. Coach Cooper said as much in the earlier series against Tampa. He was certain his bottom six would beat the Leafs and they did in the earlier matchups.

Aho's line has not had a great playoff because their opponents focused on them. Carolina's 2nd line and depth has carried them. Aho hasn't forgotten how to play hockey. He's been checked which stifles his production. We've seen this countless times over the years - with great players. Caufield's line this year is another example.

These talented players didn't suddenly forget how to play hockey or suddenly become gutless. They're being checked by their opponent's best checkers - which hurts their production.

There were other issues like Dubas went too far in the skill department and his rosters lacked grit.
Vegas is a big strong defensively capable team. Leafs never had anything like that.
Those big strong guys are opening up the ice for Marner, who is not a big strong guy, to do his thing.
Vegas were defensive & gritty and needed the opposite: smarts and skill which Marner helped to provide.

I was not a fan of them drafting Marner because he was not a big strong guy.
I did not realize how smart he was.
He got on a team like Vegas and was smart enough to figure out how to carve out an effective role.

McDavid is handily the best player in the world.
He put up gaudy playoff points.
His teams lacked goaltending and defensive ability.
So what did he win?

It is a team sport. McCrimmon was right. Trying to win with a small handful of great players is a tough way to go about it. Leafs proved that again and again for 9 years.

 

[cw]

Here's the thing - you can put out all the stats you like in support of Marner, and by and large I thought he was (just) ok in the playoffs for the leafs . But put that aside, here's what I think is insane about this 10 year leafs run - not once did any individual player go nuts and have a breakout playoff performance. Not a single player from 1-24. Not the goalie, not a forward not a defenceman. Like I honestly truly believed that O'Reilly was going to be that player... Nope.

That's just crazy. You'd think with that kind of long run someone would have broken out, but not a single player. And 'core 4' aside, it think that's the biggest indictment of the team. And what drives me crazy is that I can't point to anything specific that caused this.

Here's another crude/simple cross check on my response

These are the top playoff scorer forwards who won a Conn Smythe
Wayne Gretzky
Mario Lemieux
Connor McDavid
Evgeni Malkin
Joe Sakic
Bryan Trottier

I'm ignoring McDavid who hasn't won a Cup (yet?)

I won't name them but when I go down that list, their teams have all got a Vezina caliber goalie, a Norris caliber dman and a bunch of top forwards and many are in the Hockey Hall of Fame (most along with their coach)

They had top quality depth when they put up gaudy (nuts, break out performance) points.
It is maybe the extreme example of what McCrimmon was saying.

I stumbled on this while I was trying to answer your observation for myself (long before you made it)

 

[Joe S.]

I won't name them but when I go down that list, their teams have all got a Vezina caliber goalie, a Norris caliber dman and a bunch of top forwards and many are in the Hockey Hall of Fame (most along with their coach)

You brought up an interesting point here and got me thinking how many goalies have won the Vezina and the cup in the same season, turns out it's incredibly rare only happened 4 times

• Tim Thomas (2010-11)
• Martin Brodeur (2002-03)
• Grant Fuhr (1987-88)
• Billy Smith (1981-82)

So then I thought how about top 5 in Vezina votes and made it to the finals - and now it gets more interesting. I asked chatgpt to put this together, which I'm not thrilled a out, but here you go - and you're right, having a Vezina calibre goalie improves your chances and making it to the finals.

**(This table is ugly I'll try to fix it)**

Here's a season-by-season list of the primary starting goaltenders in the Stanley Cup Final from 2000 through 2025, along with their Vezina Trophy voting result for that same season when known.

Dallas vs New Jersey
99–00 | Ed Belfour | Top 5
99–00 | Martin Brodeur | Top 5

Colorado vs New Jersey
00–01 Patrick Roy | Top 5
00–01 | Martin Brodeur | Top 5

Detroit vs Carolina
01–02 | Dominik Hasek | Vezina winner
01–02 | Arturs Irbe | Outside top 5

New Jersey vs Anaheim
02–03 | Martin Brodeur | Vezina winner
02–03 | JS Giguere | Outside top 5 |

Tampa Bay vs Calgary
03–04 | Nikolai Khabibulin | Outside top 5
03–04 | Miikka Kiprusoff | 2nd

Carolina vs Edmonton
05–06 | Cam Ward | Outside top 5
05–06 | Dwayne Roloson | Outside top 5

Anaheim vs Ottawa
06–07 | JS Giguere | Top 5
06–07 | Ray Emery | Outside top 5

Detroit vs Pittsburgh
07–08 | Chris Osgood | Outside top 5
07–08 | Marc-Andre Fleury | Top 5

Pittsburgh vs Detroit
08–09 | MA Fleury | Top 5
08–09 | Chris Osgood | Outside top 5

Chicago vs Philadelphia
09–10 | Antti Niemi | Outside top 5
09–10 | Michael Leighton | Outside top 5

Boston vs Vancouver
10–11 | Tim Thomas | 1st (Vezina winner)
10–11 | Roberto Luongo | Top 5

Los Angeles vs New Jersey
11–12 | Jonathan Quick | 2nd
11–12 | Martin Brodeur | Top 5

Chicago vs Boston
12–13 | Corey Crawford | Outside top 5
12–13 | Tuukka Rask | Top 5

Los Angeles vs NY Rangers
13–14 | Jonathan Quick | Top 5
13–14 | Henrik Lundqvist | Top 5

Chicago vs Tampa
14–15 | Bay | Corey Crawford | Outside top 5
14–15 | Ben Bishop | 2nd

Pittsburgh vs San Jose
15–16 | Matt Murray | Outside top 5
15–16 | Martin Jones | Outside top 5

Pittsburgh vs Nashville
16–17 | Matt Murray | Outside top 5
16–17 | Pekka Rinne | Top 5

Washington vs Vegas
17–18 | Braden Holtby | Outside top 5
17–18 | Marc-Andre Fleury | 3rd

St. Louis vs Boston
18–19 | Jordan Binnington | Outside top 5
18–19 | Tuukka Rask | Top 5

Tampa Bay vs Dallas
19–20 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 3rd
19–20 | Anton Khudobin | Outside top 5

Tampa Bay vs Montreal
20–21 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 2nd
20–21 | Carey Price | Outside top 5

Colorado vs Tampa Bay
21–22 | Darcy Kuemper | Outside top 5
21–22 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 5th

Vegas vs Florida
22–23 | Adin Hill | Outside top 5 |
22–23 | Sergei Bobrovsky | Outside top 5

Florida vs Edmonton
23–24 | Sergei Bobrovsky | 3rd
23–24 | Stuart Skinner | Outside top 5

Florida vs Edmonton
24–25 | Sergei Bobrovsky | Outside top 5
24–25 | Stuart Skinner | Outside top 5

### Goalies who reached the Final and finished particularly high in Vezina voting

* Martin Brodeur — 2002–03 winner.
* Dominik Hasek — 2001–02 winner.
* Tim Thomas — 2010–11 winner.
* Miikka Kiprusoff — 2nd in 2003–04.
* Jonathan Quick — 2nd in 2011–12.
* Ben Bishop — 2nd in 2014–15.
* Andrei Vasilevskiy — 3rd (2019–20), 2nd (2020–21), 5th (2021–22). ([NHL][1])

 

[cw]

You brought up an interesting point here and got me thinking how many goalies have won the Vezina and the cup in the same season, turns out it's incredibly rare only happened 4 times

• Tim Thomas (2010-11)
• Martin Brodeur (2002-03)
• Grant Fuhr (1987-88)
• Billy Smith (1981-82)

So then I thought how about top 5 in Vezina votes and made it to the finals - and now it gets more interesting. I asked chatgpt to put this together, which I'm not thrilled a out, but here you go - and you're right, having a Vezina calibre goalie improves your chances and making it to the finals.

**(This table is ugly I'll try to fix it)**

Here's a season-by-season list of the primary starting goaltenders in the Stanley Cup Final from 2000 through 2025, along with their Vezina Trophy voting result for that same season when known.

Dallas vs New Jersey
99–00 | Ed Belfour | Top 5
99–00 | Martin Brodeur | Top 5

Colorado vs New Jersey
00–01 Patrick Roy | Top 5
00–01 | Martin Brodeur | Top 5

Detroit vs Carolina
01–02 | Dominik Hasek | Vezina winner
01–02 | Arturs Irbe | Outside top 5

New Jersey vs Anaheim
02–03 | Martin Brodeur | Vezina winner
02–03 | JS Giguere | Outside top 5 |

Tampa Bay vs Calgary
03–04 | Nikolai Khabibulin | Outside top 5
03–04 | Miikka Kiprusoff | 2nd

Carolina vs Edmonton
05–06 | Cam Ward | Outside top 5
05–06 | Dwayne Roloson | Outside top 5

Anaheim vs Ottawa
06–07 | JS Giguere | Top 5
06–07 | Ray Emery | Outside top 5

Detroit vs Pittsburgh
07–08 | Chris Osgood | Outside top 5
07–08 | Marc-Andre Fleury | Top 5

Pittsburgh vs Detroit
08–09 | MA Fleury | Top 5
08–09 | Chris Osgood | Outside top 5

Chicago vs Philadelphia
09–10 | Antti Niemi | Outside top 5
09–10 | Michael Leighton | Outside top 5

Boston vs Vancouver
10–11 | Tim Thomas | 1st (Vezina winner)
10–11 | Roberto Luongo | Top 5

Los Angeles vs New Jersey
11–12 | Jonathan Quick | 2nd
11–12 | Martin Brodeur | Top 5

Chicago vs Boston
12–13 | Corey Crawford | Outside top 5
12–13 | Tuukka Rask | Top 5

Los Angeles vs NY Rangers
13–14 | Jonathan Quick | Top 5
13–14 | Henrik Lundqvist | Top 5

Chicago vs Tampa
14–15 | Bay | Corey Crawford | Outside top 5
14–15 | Ben Bishop | 2nd

Pittsburgh vs San Jose
15–16 | Matt Murray | Outside top 5
15–16 | Martin Jones | Outside top 5

Pittsburgh vs Nashville
16–17 | Matt Murray | Outside top 5
16–17 | Pekka Rinne | Top 5

Washington vs Vegas
17–18 | Braden Holtby | Outside top 5
17–18 | Marc-Andre Fleury | 3rd

St. Louis vs Boston
18–19 | Jordan Binnington | Outside top 5
18–19 | Tuukka Rask | Top 5

Tampa Bay vs Dallas
19–20 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 3rd
19–20 | Anton Khudobin | Outside top 5

Tampa Bay vs Montreal
20–21 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 2nd
20–21 | Carey Price | Outside top 5

Colorado vs Tampa Bay
21–22 | Darcy Kuemper | Outside top 5
21–22 | Andrei Vasilevskiy | 5th

Vegas vs Florida
22–23 | Adin Hill | Outside top 5 |
22–23 | Sergei Bobrovsky | Outside top 5

Florida vs Edmonton
23–24 | Sergei Bobrovsky | 3rd
23–24 | Stuart Skinner | Outside top 5

Florida vs Edmonton
24–25 | Sergei Bobrovsky | Outside top 5
24–25 | Stuart Skinner | Outside top 5

### Goalies who reached the Final and finished particularly high in Vezina voting

* Martin Brodeur — 2002–03 winner.
* Dominik Hasek — 2001–02 winner.
* Tim Thomas — 2010–11 winner.
* Miikka Kiprusoff — 2nd in 2003–04.
* Jonathan Quick — 2nd in 2011–12.
* Ben Bishop — 2nd in 2014–15.
* Andrei Vasilevskiy — 3rd (2019–20), 2nd (2020–21), 5th (2021–22). ([NHL][1])

I am thinking of it a little differently or more generally

We're loosely talking about running up scoring points in the playoffs

So a team says "We gotta stop Gretzky-Kurri!!" and Edmonton says "Ok, Messier-Anderson - you guys are up"
And they're backed by Coffey, Huddy, Lowe, etc - good dmen
Grant Fuhr & Andy Moog are in goal

When there is that depth, it is hard to stop all those good lines.
The goalies are important for the offense as the forwards can take more risks without it ending up in the back of their net.

You go through the '70s Habs, '80s Islanders, '90s Penguins, Sakic's Avs - they had better nearly everything in terms of depth
I'm not hung up on a year a goalie got the Vezina - just that he was Vezina capable = a truly good goalie or an HHoFer
I don't care if a dman got the Norris in a particular year - just that he was Norris capable because season to season, for the top dmen, it doesn't change that much generally.

That is what I felt I was seeing with Vegas vs the Leafs. It is less obvious there because it is not merely points. They have a number of forwards very good defensively. They don't have great yardsticks for that so they wouldn't appear as dangerous on paper when you just look at their points. It was the combination of their defensive play and their offensive play that made them more effective. Because they have 2 2/3rds lines of it, that made them tougher to stop. Most teams tried to focus on Eichel's line. Instead of facing first line defense with Matthews, Marner got 2nd line defense with Karlsson-Howden and they did a bunch of damage as a result. That helped Marner run up points.

I did not think Andersen's or Hart's goaltending was that great (ignoring the numbers) Hart did not let in a lot of bad goals.

Marner is outscoring Eichel by 8 points but it is not completely fair because Eichel has been facing tougher checking (Leafs fans would be all over him!) Stone was added to Eichel's line last night to try to help him. But it has been shifting - to more attention paid to Marner. So Tortorella is just giving Marner more ice time - and less PK time. Marner is getting more ice time than any forward so they have to tag team defending him. That extra ice time hasn't hurt his points total either.

 

[Joe S.]

I am thinking of it a little differently or more generally

We're loosely talking about running up scoring points in the playoffs

Just to be clear I went on a tangent based on one of the points you made. I want to do the same thing by looking into 'norris calibre' defenceman as you mentioned.

 

[cw]

Just to be clear I went on a tangent based on one of the points you made. I want to do the same thing by looking into 'norris calibre' defenceman as you mentioned.

Mine isn't as scientific. I bet I could name more than half the roster of all those teams - the key players. I'd get a bunch quickly and then a few more would trickle in over a day or two. I'd know most of them who made the HHoF or won Vezina or Norris trophies. I'd get tripped up a little on timing - which ones were there for which years within a range or what year they won an individual trophy. Those were some of the greatest teams in NHL history - they won more than one Cup (Avs were a little spread out).

 

[Bill_Berg]

I am thinking of it a little differently or more generally

We're loosely talking about running up scoring points in the playoffs

So a team says "We gotta stop Gretzky-Kurri!!" and Edmonton says "Ok, Messier-Anderson - you guys are up"
And they're backed by Coffey, Huddy, Lowe, etc - good dmen
Grant Fuhr & Andy Moog are in goal

When there is that depth, it is hard to stop all those good lines.
The goalies are important for the offense as the forwards can take more risks without it ending up in the back of their net.

You go through the '70s Habs, '80s Islanders, '90s Penguins, Sakic's Avs - they had better nearly everything in terms of depth
I'm not hung up on a year a goalie got the Vezina - just that he was Vezina capable = a truly good goalie or an HHoFer
I don't care if a dman got the Norris in a particular year - just that he was Norris capable because season to season, for the top dmen, it doesn't change that much generally.

That is what I felt I was seeing with Vegas vs the Leafs. It is less obvious there because it is not merely points. They have a number of forwards very good defensively. They don't have great yardsticks for that so they wouldn't appear as dangerous on paper when you just look at their points. It was the combination of their defensive play and their offensive play that made them more effective. Because they have 2 2/3rds lines of it, that made them tougher to stop. Most teams tried to focus on Eichel's line. Instead of facing first line defense with Matthews, Marner got 2nd line defense with Karlsson-Howden and they did a bunch of damage as a result. That helped Marner run up points.

I did not think Andersen's or Hart's goaltending was that great (ignoring the numbers) Hart did not let in a lot of bad goals.

Marner is outscoring Eichel by 8 points but it is not completely fair because Eichel has been facing tougher checking (Leafs fans would be all over him!) Stone was added to Eichel's line last night to try to help him. But it has been shifting - to more attention paid to Marner. So Tortorella is just giving Marner more ice time - and less PK time. Marner is getting more ice time than any forward so they have to tag team defending him. That extra ice time hasn't hurt his points total either.

Eichel has 20 points in 19 games and the team is if the final. Leafs fans would most certainly not be all over him. People nit pick points because the Leafs lose. It's the losing that drives it all. If they were to fucking win no one would complain.