Penn State Scandal

[Fanatic]

Likely to be the story of the week and a piece of ugliness that will be in the news for a while to come.

http://www.cnn.com/2011/11/07/justice/pennsylvania-coach-abuse-charges/index.html?hpt=hp_t1

 

[Captain Canuck]

I don't care how many games Paterno wins THIS will become his legacy at Penn State!
He may very well have fulfilled his legal obligations in the case, but certainly not his moral obligations. You can't tell other people about it who do nothing and then just wipe your hands and walk away. As soon as a reasonable amount of time had passed and nothing had come of this any person with a conscience would have spoken up, but Paterno chose to keep his mouth shut for a decade! If this whole can of worms hadn't of been opened now I'm quite certain JoePa would have taken this to his grave.
This isn't just about Sandusky and the horrible things he did, its about anybody who knew something and didn't act appropriately on it and that includes Paterno.
If Sandusky is found guilty (and there is no reason to think he won't be IMO) then Paterno and the other school officials who knew of the abuse should be fired immediately!

 

[cw]

I don't care how many games Paterno wins THIS will become his legacy at Penn State!
He may very well have fulfilled his legal obligations in the case, but certainly not his moral obligations. You can't tell other people about it who do nothing and then just wipe your hands and walk away. As soon as a reasonable amount of time had passed and nothing had come of this any person with a conscience would have spoken up, but Paterno chose to keep his mouth shut for a decade! If this whole can of worms hadn't of been opened now I'm quite certain JoePa would have taken this to his grave.
This isn't just about Sandusky and the horrible things he did, its about anybody who knew something and didn't act appropriately on it and that includes Paterno.
If Sandusky is found guilty (and there is no reason to think he won't be IMO) then Paterno and the other school officials who knew of the abuse should be fired immediately!

At this juncture, from what I read in the grand jury complaint, I think that's a rush to judgement.
link to complaint - warning: some graphic details

In 2002, Paterno got a second hand report about someone who no longer worked for him - Sandusky had left the defensive coach position in 1999. Paterno promptly passed that report on to the school and the guy who oversaw the university police for them to investigate & deal with. To this date, the authorities have not been able to identify the minor who was alleged to have been a victim in that incident. In other words, they have one eyewitness account of that incident with zero corroboration, zero evidence and zero victims. That's all Paterno had = hearsay.

He's the football coach. Not the Sherlock Holmes for the criminal investigation of hearsay sex allegations with no other witnesses, no evidence and no victim. One of the people Paterno spoke with the following day was Shultz who oversaw the Penn State University Police (please reread this sentence). If the coach reports the hearsay to the top overseer of the police at the university, as has been testified to the grand jury by both parties he did, how much further are we to expect the coach to go?

The Penn State University Police
http://www.police.psu.edu/statestatutes/
"have the power and duty:
...
5. to exercise the same powers as are now or may hereafter be exercised under authority of law or ordinance by the police of the municipalities wherein the college or university is located, including, but not limited to, those powers conferred pursuant to 42 Pa.C.S. Ch. 89 Subch. D (relating to municipal police jurisdiction).

6. to prevent crime, investigate criminal acts, apprehend, arrest, and charge criminal offenders and issue summary citations for acts committed on the grounds and in the buildings of the college or university and carry the offender before the proper alderman, justice of the peace, magistrate or bail commissioner and prefer charges against him under the laws of this commonwealth.

I need more before I'll condemn Paterno on this. Unfortunately and once again, the media seems to be getting a little carried away with a rush to convict all kinds of folks without digesting all the facts.

 

[Kin]

Honestly the whole system of College athletics in the states is such a cesspool of greed and self-interest that there's really very little that could happen that would shock me. Sure, the crimes here are particularly reprehensible but it's just about the only thing that could be uglier than what went on at Baylor.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I need more before I'll condemn Paterno on this. Unfortunately and once again, the media seems to be getting a little carried away with a rush to convict all kinds of folks without digesting all the facts.

If what is said now is the truth, I think I tend to agree with Cathal Kelly:

He is a demonstrably great football coach. He is first and foremost an educator. The onus was on him to extract a full story from McQueary. Only one simple question ? ?What exactly did you see?? ? was required. That Paterno heard, however murkily, that a man once in his employ was taking advantage of children, and then thought he?d fulfilled his duty by passing the note along, is a grave failure.

http://www.thestar.com/sports/college/article/1082813--kelly-paterno-can-stop-the-shredding-of-his-legacy?bn=1

 

[hockeyfan1]

Any normal person would have been alarmed in the same manner as McQueary was. 

The reaction and subsequent failure to act is certainly not normal within these college 'hierarchies'.

 

[Corn Flake]

Paterno now apparently retiring at the end of the season.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/joe-paterno-retiring-penn-state-football-season_n_1083821.html

Something tells me he won't get the chance to do that, but we'll see.

 

[Sucker Punch]

I don't quite understand what's going on.

An ex-coach is being charged with kid Friging, and the students are upset about this?

 

[dappleganger]

I don't quite understand what's going on.

An ex-coach is being charged with kid Friging, and the students are upset about this?

Yes you are confused. Everyone is upset about the ex-coach, Jerry Sandusky, who is accused of molesting a boy in the Penn State football shower facilities.

Students are upset about the Legendary Joe Paterno, the football coach at Penn State since 1966, being fired today.

Joe Paterno didn't go to the police with second hand information about the alleged incident which is required by state law.

JoePa is not being charged and will most likely will not be charged but several other Penn State administrators have been charged with perjury.

Paterno now apparently retiring at the end of the season.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/09/joe-paterno-retiring-penn-state-football-season_n_1083821.html

Something tells me he won't get the chance to do that, but we'll see.

You are correct. 

 

[cw]

Joe Paterno didn't go to the police with second hand information about the alleged incident which is required by state law.

I'm not sure that statement is correct.

Paterno has been cleared and as of earlier this week, is not being investigated because he did what is currently required by law in 2002. The law changed in 2007. He was very clear of the 2002 law.

A number of folks have made the point that Paterno reported it to the man who oversaw the University Police who have powers similar to municipal police. Because Paterno put his boss and this overseer of the police directly in contact with the witness and he outlined that it was an allegation involving sexual abuse of a child, he's short circuited the process to avoid legal reliance on what he had to say about it to them. They could get the detailed information directly from the witness and according to the witness, he provided it to them. That also helped Paterno's legal position under this law.

By all accounts I've seen, including the outcome of the grand jury investigation, Paterno promptly satisfied his legal responsibilities for this state law under the circumstances by doing what he did.

link
In 2002, when the alleged incident occurred, a prior version of the statute required an abused child to come directly into contact with a person "in their professional or official capacity" in order for them to be a mandated reporter. The law widened in 2007 to include those who hear the information secondhand.

Not only is Paterno clear under the law, the two men that have been charged under that law and charged with perjury have a pretty good legal argument to also be clear of that law because they heard the information second hand in 2002 and were never contacted by or in direct contact with the child.

The debate on Paterno revolves around whether he did enough morally. The rioting students apparently feel that he did. Many in the media, many in the public and apparently the board of trustees for the university (who may be motivated by civil, PR or other reasons) feel Paterno should have done more. In his statement announcing his retirement, Paterno expressed with the benefit of hindsight that he wished he had done more. That wasn't enough for the school and they fired him immediately.

 

[dappleganger]

Joe Paterno didn't go to the police with second hand information about the alleged incident which is required by state law.

I'm not sure that statement is correct.

You are correct CW. I heard people on the radio saying the previous but they clarified that if you are the guardian of the child and have second hand knowledge you have to report it to police.

Joe is in the clear. The police have already stated he will not be charged.

 

[Trolloc]

I am somewhat hesitant to join this media crucifixion of Joe Paterno. While  the likelihood is that  these allegations of child molestation were swept under the rug in the name of Football, other scenarios are in the realm of possibility.

For example, once Joe Paterno reported the allegations to his superiors, did they conduct an investigation and find the witness questionable? Did they feel these were false allegations that would only damage the football program for no good reason?  It is possible these sentiments were expressed to Joe and he felt the matter was closed and the allegations to be falsified?
Another question that needs to be answered (excuse me if it has) is why did the witness not come forward once  he/she realized it hadn`t gone to the police? Isn`t the responsibility on him or her?

Ultimately, we don`t know the exact details of what went on behind the scenes. Maybe Joe was wilfully ignorant, maybe Joe was covering up the allegations to protect the football program, maybe he disserves his reputation going into the trash. It is just I never enjoy seeing lives get ruined based on media pressure. Hopefully, the board's decision was based on facts and not a move with the purpose of public relations only.

 

[Kin]

For example, once Joe Paterno reported the allegations to his superiors, did they conduct an investigation and find the witness questionable? Did they feel these were false allegations that would only damage the football program for no good reason?  It is possible these sentiments were expressed to Joe and he felt the matter was closed and the allegations to be falsified?

If that were the case do you think Paterno, or any morally responsible adult, should be satisfied with the result of an "investigation" into criminal accusations this serious conducted by a University athletic department?

 

[Bates]

I believe it has been reported that Paterno reported this to Univ Police who have the same powers as any police dept.  I am not saying Paterno is free of all guilt but once he has reported this to the authorities I'm not sure he should be expected to do more.

 

[Trolloc]

For example, once Joe Paterno reported the allegations to his superiors, did they conduct an investigation and find the witness questionable? Did they feel these were false allegations that would only damage the football program for no good reason?  It is possible these sentiments were expressed to Joe and he felt the matter was closed and the allegations to be falsified?

If that were the case do you think Paterno, or any morally responsible adult, should be satisfied with the result of an "investigation" into criminal accusations this serious conducted by a University athletic department?

It appears Paterno is in the fault.

It just seems odd the the iniatial witness didn`t goto to police himself. Also, if Paterno did go to campus police he may not be in the wrong here.

I used to work in security and reported a few crimes. Assaults, vandalism etc...after I report it I hear nothing of the investigation or what happened. If Paterno did report to campus police or bosses, isn`t their chance he believe it was properly reported and an investigation took place?

 

[Kin]

I believe it has been reported that Paterno reported this to Univ Police who have the same powers as any police dept.

This is incorrect. Paterno reported it to someone who oversaw the campus police in what looks to be an administrative sense. He certainly wasn't an officer of the university police with those same powers.

While a campus police officer has by-law the same powers of an off-campus police officer there are gigantic differences between the capabilities of a campus police department and the actual state police. I just looked at PSU's police department and they have the grand total of five investigative officers, including the head of the division and someone in evidence control, for a campus of 80,000 students. I'm guessing that if Paterno, or anyone else with a responsibility to do so, had actually reported this to an officer in that police department they would have said "this is beyond our capabilities, you should go to the state police".

I am not saying Paterno is free of all guilt but once he has reported this to the authorities I'm not sure he should be expected to do more.

Again, the issue is whether or not the "proper authorities" to report allegations of the sexual assault of a child to are the university athletic department/administration vs. the police.

I just don't see that as really tricky conundrum.

 

[lc9]

I believe it has been reported that Paterno reported this to Univ Police who have the same powers as any police dept.  I am not saying Paterno is free of all guilt but once he has reported this to the authorities I'm not sure he should be expected to do more.

It appears you, like cw, don't really understand what JoePa meant to Penn State.  He wasn't the football coach, he was the university.  He has had more power than the President and has hand picked members of the board of trustees, that was his school, his town.  He knew what happened.  It wasn't a coincidence that Sandusky was relieved of his duties in after the 1999 season, just 1 year after the first investigation.  Sandusky was in line to be the next head coach at Penn State, and if Joe didnt retire there were teams lining up to hire him, and then all of a sudden he is jobless and no one wants him?  Then in 2002 the GA tells JoePa about this and all he can do is tell his superior?  Give me a break.  No one at that  university was bigger than JoePa prior to this Saturday. 

Sandusky was seen working out there last week!  It was a cover up to protect the university brand.  I am surprised to read this forum and see this eerie lack of prosecution of JoePa. 

JoePa was everything to Penn State and State College, Pennsylvania.  And he did nothing when he found out about this.  Telling the Sr. VP and AD wasn't enough, not by a long shot.  And because of this egregious moral failure, more boys were harmed, that is the bottom line.  The behavior continued because noone put a stop to it.  And regardless of what you may think, Joe Paterno was the man that was supposed stand up in dark times and lead the way.  But he didn't, he hid it and moved on. 

It's a sad day, really.   

 

[cw]

I am somewhat hesitant to join this media crucifixion of Joe Paterno. While  the likelihood is that  these allegations of child molestation were swept under the rug in the name of Football, other scenarios are in the realm of possibility.

For example, once Joe Paterno reported the allegations to his superiors, did they conduct an investigation and find the witness questionable? Did they feel these were false allegations that would only damage the football program for no good reason?  It is possible these sentiments were expressed to Joe and he felt the matter was closed and the allegations to be falsified?
Another question that needs to be answered (excuse me if it has) is why did the witness not come forward once  he/she realized it hadn`t gone to the police? Isn`t the responsibility on him or her?

Ultimately, we don`t know the exact details of what went on behind the scenes. Maybe Joe was wilfully ignorant, maybe Joe was covering up the allegations to protect the football program, maybe he disserves his reputation going into the trash. It is just I never enjoy seeing lives get ruined based on media pressure. Hopefully, the board's decision was based on facts and not a move with the purpose of public relations only.

I'm in the same place. It's somewhat incredible to me what has been said in the media when a bunch of things you've raised or questions I've asked myself haven't been answered. People are supposed to be innocent until proven otherwise. In the court of public opinion, Paterno got convicted.

Here's a part that troubles me: In 1998, there was a Sandusky incident reported to the university police. They investigated. No charges were filed - in part because Sandusky apparently just hugged the kid in a shower - not a clear cut case of sexual abuse. The university lawyers confirmed that Paterno, Sandusky's boss at the time, was never told about the incident. The two guys who got charged, who Paterno went to in 2002, knew about it. One of those guys oversaw the University police and to that extent, I wonder about Paterno's perception - if he had felt he reported it to a police authority. How do we know they didn't steer Paterno away or lied to him like they apparently lied to the Grand Jury if/when Paterno followed up? As of right now, we don't know that.

I can only hope that the university board of trustees looked carefully at this before coming to their decision on Paterno and that it wasn't another effort to offer a sacrificial lamb to help cover their collective butts.

 

[Kin]

It wasn't a coincidence that Sandusky was relieved of his duties in after the 1999 season, just 1 year after the first investigation.  Sandusky was in line to be the next head coach at Penn State, and if Joe didnt retire there were teams lining up to hire him, and then all of a sudden he is jobless and no one wants him?  Then in 2002 the GA tells JoePa about this and all he can do is tell his superior?  Give me a break.  No one at that  university was bigger than JoePa prior to this Saturday. 

I think that, and this is purely speculation on my part, that this is a bigger part of the story then people know just yet. 2002 wasn't the first time improper conduct on Sandusky's part was alleged. It looks like both the university police and state would have had previous information that could have pointed them in the right direction here.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I am somewhat hesitant to join this media crucifixion of Joe Paterno. While  the likelihood is that  these allegations of child molestation were swept under the rug in the name of Football, other scenarios are in the realm of possibility.

For example, once Joe Paterno reported the allegations to his superiors, did they conduct an investigation and find the witness questionable? Did they feel these were false allegations that would only damage the football program for no good reason?  It is possible these sentiments were expressed to Joe and he felt the matter was closed and the allegations to be falsified?
Another question that needs to be answered (excuse me if it has) is why did the witness not come forward once  he/she realized it hadn`t gone to the police? Isn`t the responsibility on him or her?

Ultimately, we don`t know the exact details of what went on behind the scenes. Maybe Joe was wilfully ignorant, maybe Joe was covering up the allegations to protect the football program, maybe he disserves his reputation going into the trash. It is just I never enjoy seeing lives get ruined based on media pressure. Hopefully, the board's decision was based on facts and not a move with the purpose of public relations only.

I'm in the same place. It's somewhat incredible to me what has been said in the media when a bunch of things you've raised or questions I've asked myself haven't been answered. People are supposed to be innocent until proven otherwise. In the court of public opinion, Paterno got convicted.

Here's a part that troubles me: In 1998, there was a Sandusky incident reported to the university police. They investigated. No charges were filed - in part because Sandusky apparently just hugged the kid in a shower - not a clear cut case of sexual abuse. The university lawyers confirmed that Paterno, Sandusky's boss at the time, was never told about the incident. The two guys who got charged, who Paterno went to in 2002, knew about it. One of those guys oversaw the University police and to that extent, I wonder about Paterno's perception - if he had felt he reported it to a police authority. How do we know they didn't steer Paterno away or lied to him like they apparently lied to the Grand Jury if/when Paterno followed up? As of right now, we don't know that.

I can only hope that the university board of trustees looked carefully at this before coming to their decision on Paterno and that it wasn't another effort to offer a sacrificial lamb to help cover their collective butts.

Paterno's son said he never so much as even asked Sandusky about the incident.  He's your assistant coach for 30 years and you hear this about him and you don't even so much as ask him about it?

Seems like not wanting to find out the truth to me.

This sums it up for me:

Could you imagine the victims' horror if Paterno -- who all but ignored the sickening actions of their alleged predator -- had been cheered in his final home game against Nebraska at Beaver Stadium on Saturday? Could you imagine the victims' horror if Paterno had been carried off on his players' shoulders after winning the inaugural Big Ten championship game in Indianapolis on Dec. 3?

The Hall of Fame coach who did very little to help them was able to go on with his storybook life, while their lives had been shattered by an alleged sexual predator who wasn't stopped by men with knowledge of the unspeakable crimes.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/7214753/joe-paterno-firing-was-only-decision-penn-state-nittany-lions-make