Did the Leafs Ruin Schenn's Development?

[YYZ]

But how is trading Schenn for JVR a desperation move, or giving up on Schenn?  Leafs have needed to get bigger and more skilled up front for quite some time.  The only position of any surplus or strength was defence, so Burke dealt a dman for a forward.

 

[Corn Flake]

But how is trading Schenn for JVR a desperation move, or giving up on Schenn?  Leafs have needed to get bigger and more skilled up front for quite some time.  The only position of any surplus or strength was defence, so Burke dealt a dman for a forward.

Yeah even if Schenn had his best season last year, this trade still would make sense for the Leafs.  Schenn at his best was playing a good shutdown 2nd pairing role... not an elite guy but solid.  That still to me is of equal value to a top six power forward with potential to be an All Star level LW.

 

[Tigger]

Doesn't the first sentence of the op sort of talk about this?

 

[WalterSobchak]

But how is trading Schenn for JVR a desperation move, or giving up on Schenn?  Leafs have needed to get bigger and more skilled up front for quite some time.  The only position of any surplus or strength was defence, so Burke dealt a dman for a forward.

Yeah even if Schenn had his best season last year, this trade still would make sense for the Leafs.  Schenn at his best was playing a good shutdown 2nd pairing role... not an elite guy but solid.  That still to me is of equal value to a top six power forward with potential to be an All Star level LW.

So you are saying this knowing full well that defencemen take much longer to develop then forwards do? For a guy who could be the next Nik Antropov, erm, Mr Glass?

 

[Corn Flake]

But how is trading Schenn for JVR a desperation move, or giving up on Schenn?  Leafs have needed to get bigger and more skilled up front for quite some time.  The only position of any surplus or strength was defence, so Burke dealt a dman for a forward.

Yeah even if Schenn had his best season last year, this trade still would make sense for the Leafs.  Schenn at his best was playing a good shutdown 2nd pairing role... not an elite guy but solid.  That still to me is of equal value to a top six power forward with potential to be an All Star level LW.

So you are saying this knowing full well that defencemen take much longer to develop then forwards do? For a guy who could be the next Nik Antropov, erm, Mr Glass?

I think the return was good for a guy who probably levels out as a #4 d-men, yes. 

JVR will probably have injury issues throughout his career but they are par for the course with a power forward.  The hope is you get 65-70 games / year on average and he's healthy for the playoffs.  Whether we traded Schenn for JVR, drafted a kid, or traded Phil Kessel for Rick Nash.. injuries will be a factor.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

 

[LeafsInSeven]

Is there empirical proof that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards? I think it's just easier to shelter a young forward in an NHL lineup than a young defenseman just due to numbers. In many ways, playing forward is a more varied task.

 

[Zee]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

Who said JVR was a star forward?  He's a promising young forward who has shown some flashes of great play (especially in the playoffs 2 years ago).

 

[WalterSobchak]

Is there empirical proof that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards? I think it's just easier to shelter a young forward in an NHL lineup than a young defenseman just due to numbers. In many ways, playing forward is a more varied task.

Empirical proof like pulling stats out of my ass from some website? No just a history of it, although the age it seems is getting younger.

 

[WalterSobchak]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

Who said JVR was a star forward?  He's a promising young forward who has shown some flashes of great play (especially in the playoffs 2 years ago).

So now we are arguing semantics now?  Is Luke Schenn a star defenceman? Or promising?

 

[LeafsInSeven]

Is there empirical proof that defensemen take longer to develop than forwards? I think it's just easier to shelter a young forward in an NHL lineup than a young defenseman just due to numbers. In many ways, playing forward is a more varied task.

Empirical proof like pulling stats out of my ass from some website? No just a history of it, although the age it seems is getting younger.

Oops, I'm still keeping the names straight. I thought I was playing Potvin29's game not the hockey clich? game.

 

[The Red Polar Bear]

don't get me started on why Komisarek got so many defensive zone draws when he wasn't very good though

This may just be my brain picking this out, but I feel it's because he ices the puck a heck of a lot when he's on the ice, and you can't change on an icing.

 

[Peter D.]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

I thought of this point the other day. 

This could be an instance where Burke swooped in and bought JvR at a lower price.  If this turns out to be similar to the Lupul situation (improved health and quality production), this could become a resounding win for the Leafs.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

So if he "only got Luke Schenn" why would that make him laugh?  Isn't that implying Schenn isn't very good either?

 

[LeafsInSeven]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

If I'm looking at this from your perspective, I would be suspicious whether JVR is very damaged goods not just injury-prone.

On Schenn, I'm not so sure that he doesn't carry some chronic injuries himself. I know he injured his knee in his rookie season. My memory is that Schenn was more mobile when he was a rookie. I can remember him cutting off Malkin going wide and sending him sprawling into the boards. I don't see the current day Schenn being able to handle Malkin going wide on him like that.

 

[Corn Flake]

On Schenn, I'm not so sure that he doesn't carry some chronic injuries himself. I know he injured his knee in his rookie season. My memory is that Schenn was more mobile when he was a rookie. I can remember him cutting off Malkin going wide and sending him sprawling into the boards. I don't see the current day Schenn being able to handle Malkin going wide on him like that.

Schenn wrecked up his knee on a hit on Ovechkin.  I don't think it was super serious at the time but maybe there is something to that.

He also had an eye problem in his 2nd year.  Supposedly it was fixed but that one reeeallly makes me wonder.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

But how is trading Schenn for JVR a desperation move, or giving up on Schenn?  Leafs have needed to get bigger and more skilled up front for quite some time.  The only position of any surplus or strength was defence, so Burke dealt a dman for a forward.

Yeah, I'm firmly in this camp. I really liked Luke Schenn, but I understand the deal. It was like a more quality Carter Ashton for Keith Aulie deal. If we didn't have a glut of blueliners in the system, I doubt we would have seen this.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

Yeah, because Holmgrem is really good at trading forwards away.

 

[Zee]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

Who said JVR was a star forward?  He's a promising young forward who has shown some flashes of great play (especially in the playoffs 2 years ago).

So now we are arguing semantics now?  Is Luke Schenn a star defenceman? Or promising?

What?  That's not semantics at all.  There's a huge difference between a "star" and someone who is "promising".  A star would imply that the player has reached his potential and is putting up big numbers for his position already.  Nobody has said that about JVR. 

In regards to Schenn, I don't think anyone has ever called him a star either.  He originally was supposed to be this big "shut-down" type player and he hasn't lived up to that yet.  Both guys have years left to prove their critics wrong. 

 

[WalterSobchak]

I think somewhere Paul Holmgrem is laughing in his best Dr Evil pose. If JVR is this star forward, why did he only get Luke Schenn for him? That's the part that baffles me.

I thought of this point the other day. 

This could be an instance where Burke swooped in and bought JvR at a lower price.  If this turns out to be similar to the Lupul situation (improved health and quality production), this could become a resounding win for the Leafs.

I am not denying that there are chances taken in trades. I just don't like this trade.