2024-25 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[YYZ]

My guess is they are about $2-$2.5 million apart on an eight year deal.

I am guessing he wants 15% of the cap, like Matthews. That works out to $14.5 million a year.

 

[herman]

You have to be pretty willfully ignorant of The Darren Ferris Method to think the games are originating from the team side.

Sure some media members have subjective opinions about what they’re hearing, but by and large, they all tend to agree with one another regarding Marner-related contract dealings.

I’m generally pro player getting paid appropriately. If the guy wants to be with Toronto for the long haul at basically market value, you just have to look at how Matthews and Nylander handled it. This ain’t it.

 

[Guilt Trip]

You have to be pretty willfully ignorant of The Darren Ferris Method to think the games are originating from the team side.

Sure some media members have subjective opinions about what they’re hearing, but by and large, they all tend to agree with one another regarding Marner-related contract dealings.

I’m generally pro player getting paid appropriately. If the guy wants to be with Toronto for the long haul at basically market value, you just have to look at how Matthews and Nylander handled it. This ain’t it.

You mean the way 88 held out? You're right, this ain't it. Speaking of market value. You honestly believe 88 is worth more then Pasta? Funny you had no problem with 88 or 34 maximizing their value and even getting overpaid in 88's case, but if 16 is going to go to market to find out his value, it's a bad thing.
Again, Marner has not said anything other then wanting to be on the team. The Leafs have not said anything.
Please share a link that proves differently. Until then what the media says means nothing. CJ nevr said I have a source. He said my impression is..... So a guess, an opinion. Never have known the media to post things to get traffic.

 

[Bullfrog]

We know definitively that the Core5 as a group are not capable of playoff success.
....

No, we don't.

 

[Bullfrog]

You mean the way 88 held out? You're right, this ain't it. Speaking of market value. You honestly believe 88 is worth more then Pasta? Funny you had no problem with 88 or 34 maximizing their value and even getting overpaid in 88's case, but if 16 is going to go to market to find out his value, it's a bad thing.
Again, Marner has not said anything other then wanting to be on the team. The Leafs have not said anything.
Please share a link that proves differently. Until then what the media says means nothing. CJ nevr said I have a source. He said my impression is..... So a guess, an opinion. Never have known the media to post things to get traffic.

Are you referring to when he held out almost seven years ago? And then proceeded to play above his contract value?

 

[Ozzie]

No, we don't.

LoL..... the best this Core5 have done is exactly that. 5 wins out of 16. And most seasons they only win 3 out of 16. After 8 years of that performance....we know.

It's not like one of those seasons they made it to the conference finals, or had a few seasons they made the second round. It's not even a sniff of success with these guys.

It's ok to dream otherwise. Or be in denial.

 

[Guilt Trip]

Are you referring to when he held out almost seven years ago? And then proceeded to play above his contract value?

Short memory? 88 was coming off a 61pt in 82 games when he signed for more than Pasta who was coming of 70 pts in 75 games before he signed his. Pasta has been at least a point per game player since the start of that deal. Willy was close to being a point per game guy in year 4, but wasn't until year 5. In the duration of their contracts Pasta has put up 494pts in 420 games. Willy 393 in 418 games.
Willy didn't play above his salary until year 4 and is nowhere near Pasta, yet when he signed his new deal last year, he got more then Pasta again. So Willy maxed out his value and you know what, all the power to him for maximizing his worth.

I personally don't care what any of them get paid but don't come with this angle that Marner isn't allowed to maximize his value like the 88 and 34 have. He shouldn't be held to a different standard where people are pissed off that he might not sign until the summer. Isn't that what most people wanted to begin with? Let's see what happens in the playoffs before signing any of them?
Well you might get your wish so stop whining.

 

[Bender]

The other thing is he's durable. I would've said he can't get over Matthews money but Matthews has a pretty good chunk of injury history already.

 

[cw]

I mean let’s be honest, none of us truly know what either side has said or is doing.

We had some idea - see the article below.

The Hockey News: ... May 6th, 2024 ...Mitch Marner Wants to Remain with Maple Leafs...

Marner stood in front of reporters at Ford Performance Center on Monday, he expressed his desire to remain in the city he was raised in.
"I mean, that would be a goal. I've expressed my love for this place, this city. Obviously, I've grown up here," Marner said when asked about his next contract with Toronto.
"We'll start thinking about that now and try to figure something out."

He added that those discussions, with his team, will likely begin sooner rather than later.
"I'm sure probably within the next week or so I'll start really thinking about that and hitting me. But, obviously, at this moment, I haven't thought about it at all," Marner said. "That will come up now, probably within the next week or so."

So in May, 2024, Marner seemed all set to have a dialogue on an extension shortly after the season ended.

But ...

Sportsnet: June 27th: Maple Leafs' Treliving identifies top priority as Mitch Marner rumours swirl

At Treliving's pre-draft availabilities last June, he spoke at length about how critical it was for the organization to lock up all-star forwards Auston Matthews and William Nylander to long-term extensions. (Mission accomplished.)
This time around, Treliving emphasized a much different priority — despite 99-point right wing Mitch Marner sitting in the same contractual position as his peers were a year ago.
"I don't think it's a secret: Our defence is an area we'd like to see if we can improve. Easier said than done," Treliving stated.
...
Toronto is undoubtedly on the clock with Marner, whom Treliving has never publicly expressed a desire to re-sign.
...
But not once since the Maple Leafs' first-round exit — their seventh led by Marner & Co. in eight years — has Treliving said anything along the lines of wanting to prioritize an extension for one of the sport's most dazzling wingers or envisioning Marner a Maple Leaf long term.

Treliving talked about evaluating a Marner trade - looking at all their options. -differently from Matthews & Nylander.

There was a lot of bashing of Marner. It went on for weeks before much was said from Treliving. They hung them out to dry on that rather than defending their player.

No, we can't know everything that occurred behind closed doors. But the contrast between how Matthews and Nylander contracts were handled and Marner's was quite obvious.

 

[Guilt Trip]

We had some idea - see the article below.

The Hockey News: ... May 6th, 2024 ...Mitch Marner Wants to Remain with Maple Leafs...


So in May, 2024, Marner seemed all set to have a dialogue on an extension shortly after the season ended.

But ...

Sportsnet: June 27th: Maple Leafs' Treliving identifies top priority as Mitch Marner rumours swirl


Treliving talked about evaluating a Marner trade - looking at all their options. -differently from Matthews & Nylander.

There was a lot of bashing of Marner. It went on for weeks before much was said from Treliving. They hung them out to dry on that rather than defending their player.

No, we can't know everything that occurred behind closed doors. But the contrast between how Matthews and Nylander contracts were handled and Marner's was quite obvious.

Very true. People were all over it and I think it was CJ or some other clown that said Marner is getting traded 100%. Lots of people saying you can't run it back again, he needs to go. The only little break came when Berube had a coffee with him and told the media he can't wait to work with him.

 

[cw]

Short memory? 88 was coming off a 61pt in 82 games when he signed for more than Pasta who was coming of 70 pts in 75 games before he signed his. Pasta has been at least a point per game player since the start of that deal. Willy was close to being a point per game guy in year 4, but wasn't until year 5. In the duration of their contracts Pasta has put up 494pts in 420 games. Willy 393 in 418 games.
Willy didn't play above his salary until year 4 and is nowhere near Pasta, yet when he signed his new deal last year, he got more then Pasta again. So Willy maxed out his value and you know what, all the power to him for maximizing his worth.

I personally don't care what any of them get paid but don't come with this angle that Marner isn't allowed to maximize his value like the 88 and 34 have. He shouldn't be held to a different standard where people are pissed off that he might not sign until the summer. Isn't that what most people wanted to begin with? Let's see what happens in the playoffs before signing any of them?
Well you might get your wish so stop whining.

I would add on one enormous difference beyond the points:
Matthews, Marner & Pastrnak are 200 foot players
Nylander is 100 foot player who doesn't hit or block shots.
No question, he's one of the most gifted players in those 100 feet.
But with Nylander, you are spending nearly the same money on a guy who only plays very roughly half a game.
That is probably a little harsh but there is some merit to it compared to the others.
On that basis, Matthews and Marner deserve salaries to be significantly north of Nylander because unlike Nylander, they're complete players. They should be a higher priority to sign

 

[bustaheims]

LoL..... the best this Core5 have done is exactly that. 5 wins out of 16. And most seasons they only win 3 out of 16. After 8 years of that performance....we know.

It's not like one of those seasons they made it to the conference finals, or had a few seasons they made the second round. It's not even a sniff of success with these guys.

It's ok to dream otherwise. Or be in denial.

Not having succeeded is not the same as not being capable.

 

[Andy07]

Short memory? 88 was coming off a 61pt in 82 games when he signed for more than Pasta who was coming of 70 pts in 75 games before he signed his. Pasta has been at least a point per game player since the start of that deal. Willy was close to being a point per game guy in year 4, but wasn't until year 5. In the duration of their contracts Pasta has put up 494pts in 420 games. Willy 393 in 418 games.
Willy didn't play above his salary until year 4 and is nowhere near Pasta, yet when he signed his new deal last year, he got more then Pasta again. So Willy maxed out his value and you know what, all the power to him for maximizing his worth.

A big problem here, though, was that the Leafs spent more than they anticipated re-upping both Matthews and Marner, and then went to Willy with a 5M per year initial offer, which was a joke. You can talk about Pastranak, and, quite frankly, he took less from Boston than he could have squeezed them for, but Nylander's closest comparison was Nicholas Elhers, who was drafted one spot behind him, with similar numbers (and less of an overall ceiling/potential than Nylander); he signed in 2017 for 6M. There are always going to be outliers, Pasta (and other sweetheart deals signed in Boston) comes to mind, but 6.96M for Nylander was nothing egregious and the Leafs handled that horribly.

 

[herman]

Marner has not said anything other then wanting to be on the team. The Leafs have not said anything.
Please share a link that proves differently. Until then what the media says means nothing. CJ nevr said I have a source. He said my impression is..... So a guess, an opinion. Never have known the media to post things to get traffic.

My contention is not that Marner shouldn't maximize his value (he deserves that); my issue is with the framing that the Leafs front office has played games with this player and is at risk of losing him because of those negotiation shenanigans. I believe Marner wants to stay, but he also retains an agent that is notorious for sewering the reputations of his clients in a bid for marginal gains.

Nylander held out from signing a deal because he was being offered a short term 5M or less deal. He wanted term commitment and didn't want to be traded away (so easily).

Matthews always wanted more than the Leafs could offer at full term, so he negotiated shorter terms but always insisted that he was committed to the team.

Marner's first negotiation started with OFFER SHEET threats through the media, and declaring that they had already given the Leafs a discount when he was disrespected receiving only Schedule A contract bonuses on his ELC; his agent goes on radio the day Matthews' signs a deal saying Matthews took everything he could. Much of the noise around Marner's negotiations originates from the agent.

So yeah, on paper, Marner does nothing wrong, but something stinks that doesn't show up with the other big ticket stars on this team.

The latest chapter in the Mitch Marner contract saga: Marner reportedly declined a trade to Carolina

First off, it sucks to be writing about this topic right now. The Leafs just completed what I would consider a solid trade deadline, notably improving their roster. Are they a perfect team? Of course not, but they are better today than they were on Thursday and have a real chance to embark on a […]

mapleleafshotstove.com

MLHS says more or less the same.

 

[L K]

I mean Marner took his last negotiation down to the wire and Darren Ferris tends to be a pretty hard lined negotiator so I highly doubt that the Marner camp has been negotiating in a way to get a deal done easily. Using Darren Dreger quotes is basically just quoting what Ferris wants.

At the same time, Marner is a better player than Nylander and with Matthews health there is a fair argument to say hes' outright the best player on the team (certainly has played that way this year).

Nylander's contract is partially based on goal scoring which usually outweighs point totals in deals.

We could also point at Rantanen making 12M coming off back to back 100+ point seasons while also producing in the postseason to say that all three guys are overpaid on the Leafs.

Bottom line for me, the team is drastically worse without Marner. They probably don't win a cup with this core, but I'll pretty much guarantee they don't win one by letting Marner walk in free agency.

 

[cabber24]

I still wonder about that.

Here's Leafs Playoff PPG adjusted for scoring era (45 or more games played to get Lanny McDonald in there)

Rk Player__________ Adj Playoffs PPG
_1 Doug Gilmour........ 1.39
_2 Mats Sundin.......... 1.00
_3 Gary Roberts......... 0.93
_4 Mitch Marner......... 0.92
_5 Auston Matthews.. 0.91
_6 Darryl Sittler.......... 0.90
_7 Gordie Drillon....... 0.90
_8 William Nylander.. 0.83
_9 Red Kelly.............. 0.80
10 Ted Kennedy......... 0.79
11 Dave Keon............ 0.74
12 Lanny McDonald.. 0.73
13 Ian Turnbull.......... 0.71
14 Wendel Clark....... 0.65
15 Syl Apps............... 0.63
(I've obviously forgotten how to do tables ..)

I adjusted for scoring after I grabbed the top 15 by actual ppg so some other Leafs might slide on this list and knock some lower off if I did it 'right' But I was lazy.

The core 4 last playoff got 16% of the ice time and 50% of the goals
The core 4 last playoff got 33% of the ice time for forwards and 57% of the goals by forwards
The D contributed 1 goal.

Marner to me is special because not only did he put up those numbers - unlike many on the list, he did a lot of PK. He is second to Sundin in PK ice time for Leafs forwards since '97-'98 or so. And unlike some on the list, he played a good two way game as his Selke votes attest.

To me, that reinforces the notion that the supporting cast is likely to be the bigger problem.
I feel like we are being duped by lazy media

https://puckpedia.com/players

Right now, there are only 6 other UFA forwards age 32 (5 years older than Marner) or less with a ppg of .55 or better. (less than half of Marner's 1.27 ppg)
There will very likely will be less UFAs by July 1

The Leafs have been stupid to play games with this player. If they lose him, they can't replace him. They won't get two .55ppg or better UFAs to sign for half of Marner's salary. Like the trade deadline, desperate GMs will be spending like drunks on the few UFAs left when July 1 rolls around.

It's insane to blame the supporting cast when considering how much of the salary cap the core takes up.

 

[bustaheims]

It's insane to blame the supporting cast when considering how much of the salary cap the core takes up.

Except, if the supporting cast can't step up, it doesn't really matter how well the core plays. Cups are ultimately won because both groups made significant contributions. Should the core be able to score more than they have? Sure, there's an argument for that, but, if the supporting cast doesn't really step up their game as well, it will all be moot.

 

[cabber24]

Except, if the supporting cast can't step up, it doesn't really matter how well the core plays. Cups are ultimately won because both groups made significant contributions. Should the core be able to score more than they have? Sure, there's an argument for that, but, if the supporting cast doesn't really step up their game as well, it will all be moot.

Who's going to step when you have 4 guys making 8 figures upfront? It better be the guys making 8 figures. They cannot afford a supporting cast!

Points last playoffs: Domi (4) Bertuzzi (4) Knies (3) Matthews (4) Marner (3) Nylander (3)

 

[Guilt Trip]

A big problem here, though, was that the Leafs spent more than they anticipated re-upping both Matthews and Marner, and then went to Willy with a 5M per year initial offer, which was a joke. You can talk about Pastranak, and, quite frankly, he took less from Boston than he could have squeezed them for, but Nylander's closest comparison was Nicholas Elhers, who was drafted one spot behind him, with similar numbers (and less of an overall ceiling/potential than Nylander); he signed in 2017 for 6M. There are always going to be outliers, Pasta (and other sweetheart deals signed in Boston) comes to mind, but 6.96M for Nylander was nothing egregious and the Leafs handled that horribly.

Willy signed 1st and 5M was a little low but not outrageously low for a one dimensional player.

 

[bustaheims]

Who's going to step when you have 4 guys making 8 figures upfront? It better be the guys making 8 figures. They cannot afford a supporting cast!

That's a cop-out excuse. The roster is filled with quality NHL players who are fully capable of chipping in on offence. No one is asking them to carry the load, just to make contributions. For the most part, they have not.