2025-26 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[rdowdall]

I'm not sure why anyone would watch a league that they feel is working to make sure their team loses. Or in the least, working to make sure that their players get suspended for longer or are given more penalties.

When I watch the Leafs in this era, I see a team that rarely gets dirty. They don't go to places that draw penalties. They're a perimeter team and the proof is in the playoffs when the game changes. I'm not saying that the way they call penalties in the playoffs is right, but it has been that way since the beginning of time.

Over the past 3 seasons, this is where the leafs rank in penalties drawn.

• This year, the leafs are ranked 18th with 81 penalties drawn. They're certainly not ranked so low because of the bias against them. The NHL favourite rangers are ranked 22nd. The league leading avalanche are ranked 21st. The Stars and Red Wings who are off to great starts are also ranked below the Leafs.
• Last season, the Leafs ranked in the middle of the league for penalties drawn with 7.86 minutes per game. 16 teams drew less penalties per game than them. I'm going to guess that the League doesn't dislike 16 teams more than the Leafs.
• Florida on the other hand drew the 4th most penalties per game. But, they also took the most penalties per 60

I think that points to a team that causes sh*t up and down the ice. They take a lot of penalties, but they draw a lot of penalties. The leafs have never been that team. When they have tried, they've brought on meatheads like Bertuzzi who have no idea how to cause trouble and still play hockey. Say what you want about Sam Bennett. The guy causes a lot of sh*t but still contributes. The Leafs haven't really had that since Tucker.

As I said on my original post, I don't think it's a case of Bettman having a poster on his wall that says "F*** the Leafs", my exact words saying I don't think it is malicious.

Joe S brings up an interesting point, what if it's just the fact that the NHL focuses on the teams that are in the most danger financially, so teams like the Leafs aren't really a team that they feel they have to do work with. It could also be the ownership group of the Leafs. Maybe they don't put pressure on the league, and squeaky wheel gets the grease, so because the Leafs ownership doesn't see this as a problem, it doesn't cause a fuss with the League. Whereas a team that has a single billionaire owner with an ego, they will go out and cause a rukus, similar to Andlauer bringing up tampering charges because papers were releasing rumours about Brady Tkachuk going to the Rangers.

Just on the penalty side, for reference, here are the Leafs penalties for the years that Keefe coached the league:

2019-20

31

197

22nd StatMuse

Bottom third

2020-21

31

155

20th StatMuse

Bottom third

2021-22

32

231

21st StatMuse

Bottom third

2022-23

32

246

18th StatMuse

Slightly below middle

2023-24

32

238

25th StatMuse

Bottom quarter

Here are the Oilers stats over the same time frame:

2019-20	200 PPO StatMuse	31	18th	Lower half
2020-21	174 PPO StatMuse+1	31	8th	Top third
2021-22	235 PPO StatMuse	32	19th	Lower half
2022-23	275 PPO StatMuse+1	32	6th	Top third
2023-24	243 PPO (2.96 PPO/GP) StatMuse+1	32	20th	Lower half

So the Oilers have ping ponged between the top third and the lower half. At least they have had years where they are in the top half of the league. The highest the Leafs have finished near the top of the league in PPO was 2010 - 2011 when they were third. Maybe the bias isn't a Leaf bias, but more of a score adjustment or bad team versus good team thing.

 

[cabber24]

Marner sucks without Eichell or Matthews…

 

[cw]

I apologize, but what do we think the advantage would be for the NHL to be bias against Toronto? Or are we suggesting that it's an unconscious bias?

I'll fully admit that I haven't been much of a team "addict" since the mid 90's. I don't know the last time I watched a regular season game from start to finish. Call it "too busy" or "couldn't be bothered". Perhaps this checking out was caused by having my first kid or it was brought on by this feeling of defeat you seem to be going through.

Though, I thoroughly love the sport itself. I will have hockey on the tv in some capacity most days of the week. Even if I can only tune in for 10 minutes of a game between two random teams. Or if I can watch a team with player's I coached on youtube or facebook. I spend most weekends at a rink. I'm the guy that comes in, sits in the stands, and watches other people's children practice while I wait for my kid's game to start.

So perhaps, the reason I'm able to continue to cheer for the Leafs is I've been able to take a step back and enjoy it for what it is. The sport I enjoy watching most. The Leafs are just lucky enough to be the team that gets to piss me off every second or third night.

"what do we think the advantage would be for the NHL to be bias against Toronto? Or are we suggesting that it's an unconscious bias?"

A financial advantage.

57 Cup-less years hasn't hurt the Leafs terribly financially. Some argue if they won, it might hurt them. Still strong TV ratings. The most valuable or one of the most valuable franchises making mega bucks.

South of the border, smaller market teams are not so well off. US broadcasting deals are a much bigger challenge. So if the league tosses them the odd extra bone to keep the smaller market fans happy, it isn't hurting the Leafs a whole heck of a lot on the business side of things. Arguably, that is 'good' business. "Means, motive, and opportunity"

 

[OldTimeHockey]

"what do we think the advantage would be for the NHL to be bias against Toronto? Or are we suggesting that it's an unconscious bias?"

A financial advantage.

57 Cup-less years hasn't hurt the Leafs terribly financially. Some argue if they won, it might hurt them. Still strong TV ratings. The most valuable or one of the most valuable franchises making mega bucks.

South of the border, smaller market teams are not so well off. US broadcasting deals are a much bigger challenge. So if the league tosses them the odd extra bone to keep the smaller market fans happy, it isn't hurting the Leafs a whole heck of a lot on the business side of things. Arguably, that is 'good' business. "Means, motive, and opportunity"

Yeah, again, I don't buy it. In the least.

Like I said, this is a conspiracy theory to explain why the team hasn't won in so long all while ignoring the gross mismanagement of the team.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

As I said on my original post, I don't think it's a case of Bettman having a poster on his wall that says "F*** the Leafs", my exact words saying I don't think it is malicious.

Joe S brings up an interesting point, what if it's just the fact that the NHL focuses on the teams that are in the most danger financially, so teams like the Leafs aren't really a team that they feel they have to do work with. It could also be the ownership group of the Leafs. Maybe they don't put pressure on the league, and squeaky wheel gets the grease, so because the Leafs ownership doesn't see this as a problem, it doesn't cause a fuss with the League. Whereas a team that has a single billionaire owner with an ego, they will go out and cause a rukus, similar to Andlauer bringing up tampering charges because papers were releasing rumours about Brady Tkachuk going to the Rangers.

Just on the penalty side, for reference, here are the Leafs penalties for the years that Keefe coached the league:

2019-20

31

197

22nd StatMuse

Bottom third

2020-21

31

155

20th StatMuse

Bottom third

2021-22

32

231

21st StatMuse

Bottom third

2022-23

32

246

18th StatMuse

Slightly below middle

2023-24

32

238

25th StatMuse

Bottom quarter

Here are the Oilers stats over the same time frame:

2019-20	200 PPO StatMuse	31	18th	Lower half
2020-21	174 PPO StatMuse+1	31	8th	Top third
2021-22	235 PPO StatMuse	32	19th	Lower half
2022-23	275 PPO StatMuse+1	32	6th	Top third
2023-24	243 PPO (2.96 PPO/GP) StatMuse+1	32	20th	Lower half

So the Oilers have ping ponged between the top third and the lower half. At least they have had years where they are in the top half of the league. The highest the Leafs have finished near the top of the league in PPO was 2010 - 2011 when they were third. Maybe the bias isn't a Leaf bias, but more of a score adjustment or bad team versus good team thing.

So we're going to go as far as to say that there are referees that are also into fixing the games so that the Leafs get more penalties. Like not one or two referees, but the entire group of them, across all 82 games?

Come on man. MLB/FBI just found a pitcher who was throwing an extra ball or two to a batter to gain betters a little extra coin. Are we going to pretend that in the last 10 years, there hasn't been a referee, or NHL front office person that would have came forward and called foul? Are we going to pretend that someone else wouldn't have red-flagged this other than desperate fans trying to explain why their team can't win?

 

[Guru Tugginmypuddah]

The entire NHL is out to get the Leafs.

Or

The Leafs are just a really rich franchise who suck at building championship teams.

 

[rdowdall]

So we're going to go as far as to say that there are referees that are also into fixing the games so that the Leafs get more penalties. Like not one or two referees, but the entire group of them, across all 82 games?

Come on man. MLB/FBI just found a pitcher who was throwing an extra ball or two to a batter to gain betters a little extra coin. Are we going to pretend that in the last 10 years, there hasn't been a referee, or NHL front office person that would have came forward and called foul? Are we going to pretend that someone else wouldn't have red-flagged this other than desperate fans trying to explain why their team can't win?

You are missing my point. My point isn't that people are "actively" doing this. I am saying it could be a byproduct of something else. It could be a byproduct of too much media attention on the team. It could be a byproduct of the team management not complaining enough. It could be a byproduct of the playstyle that the Leafs employ.

However, even if someone isn't actively doing something, that doesn't mean that it isn't a hurdle that you have to overcome. Someone in Leafs management should be saying "How come Auston Matthews doesn't get as many calls as Connor McDavid?" I think Leaf fans are allowed to ask that question. Just like we are doing now with the injury status of the players. Why can't you tell us when they are going to be back?

Any team that wants to win the cup, and I think that is all of them, they have to look at what they have to overcome in order to get there. Small market teams have to figure out how to build a winning team on a budget. Tax states have to make a competitive offer over non-tax states. Just by saying that the Leafs may have disadvantages imposed on them because of who and what they are, doesn't mean that there aren't disadvantages that other teams need to face.

What bothers me is that the team itself doesn't seem to be doing something to raise these as concerns. I understand that they can't do it publicly or else they get fined, but maybe they need to take to fine at some point and just say "I don't understand what is happening here". For example in last years playoffs this happened in round one:

Senators’ Greig has penalty reduced for high cross-check on Tavares

www.sportsnet.ca

No suspension, no fine, 2 minute penalty and we call it a day. Head shot to an important player on the team. We saw what happened the last time a head shot took this player out. The last time it happened it was an accident. The above was not an accident.
I hope the Leafs did there due diligence, and sent the following two videos to the NHL DPS and said "Explain to me the difference in these plays. Explain to us why our guys got suspended, and there is no supplementary discipline on the other teams player in this case", because if they didn't do that, then they are idiots, because the NHL isn't going to change their minds just because they are the Leafs.

Again, a bias can exist that isn't a conspiracy against a team. It still may be something that needs to be addressed. My original post was incorrect if it made it sound like it put the onus on the NHL to address it.

All I was saying is that even if the Leafs overcome all of their stupid management issues, which I agree fully with you, they have had 60 years of mismanagement, they still have other hurdles that they may have to overcome that are external to just managing the team.

 

[herman]

The entire NHL is out to get the Leafs.

Or

The Leafs are just a really rich franchise who suck at building championship teams.

They’re not mutually exclusive

I don’t think the refs are out to get the Leafs, but I think their underlying fear of the appearance of bias (Toronto head office, most eyeballs) causes them to second guess anything that might give the Leafs the appearance of advantage. I think rdowall is trying to say this too.

It leads to non-calls and frustration at getting mauled repeatedly and subsequently outsized overreactions (Kadri) leading to suspensions because DOPS punishes retaliation more harshly.

The Florida teams have already figured out that if you play so consistently borderline dirty that the refs can’t call everything, the ‘strike zone’ for penalties against will shrink. The Leafs tried to play super clean all the time so every little infraction stuck out like a lighthouse.

The solution is, as always, more fasstholes.

Caveat: fasstholes that aren’t blockheads.

 

[Joe S.]

The entire NHL is out to get the Leafs.

Or

The Leafs are just a really rich franchise who suck at building championship teams.

I don’t think the nhl is out to get the leafs, I just don’t think the league gives a shit about the leafs.

And the team was well run there for a short period and then shanahan couldn’t get out of his own way.

But this Treliving era is awful. We’re back to the JFJ days. I’m almost convinced we’re going to get to watch Matthews win a cup with another team at this point.

 

[OldTimeHockey]

You are missing my point. My point isn't that people are "actively" doing this. I am saying it could be a byproduct of something else. It could be a byproduct of too much media attention on the team. It could be a byproduct of the team management not complaining enough. It could be a byproduct of the playstyle that the Leafs employ.

However, even if someone isn't actively doing something, that doesn't mean that it isn't a hurdle that you have to overcome. Someone in Leafs management should be saying "How come Auston Matthews doesn't get as many calls as Connor McDavid?" I think Leaf fans are allowed to ask that question. Just like we are doing now with the injury status of the players. Why can't you tell us when they are going to be back?

Any team that wants to win the cup, and I think that is all of them, they have to look at what they have to overcome in order to get there. Small market teams have to figure out how to build a winning team on a budget. Tax states have to make a competitive offer over non-tax states. Just by saying that the Leafs may have disadvantages imposed on them because of who and what they are, doesn't mean that there aren't disadvantages that other teams need to face.

What bothers me is that the team itself doesn't seem to be doing something to raise these as concerns. I understand that they can't do it publicly or else they get fined, but maybe they need to take to fine at some point and just say "I don't understand what is happening here". For example in last years playoffs this happened in round one:

Senators’ Greig has penalty reduced for high cross-check on Tavares

www.sportsnet.ca

No suspension, no fine, 2 minute penalty and we call it a day. Head shot to an important player on the team. We saw what happened the last time a head shot took this player out. The last time it happened it was an accident. The above was not an accident.
I hope the Leafs did there due diligence, and sent the following two videos to the NHL DPS and said "Explain to me the difference in these plays. Explain to us why our guys got suspended, and there is no supplementary discipline on the other teams player in this case", because if they didn't do that, then they are idiots, because the NHL isn't going to change their minds just because they are the Leafs.

Again, a bias can exist that isn't a conspiracy against a team. It still may be something that needs to be addressed. My original post was incorrect if it made it sound like it put the onus on the NHL to address it.

All I was saying is that even if the Leafs overcome all of their stupid management issues, which I agree fully with you, they have had 60 years of mismanagement, they still have other hurdles that they may have to overcome that are external to just managing the team.

In your videos shared, there are clear differences in the plays:

1. Tavares Cross Checked by Greig - Tavares is the aggressor on the play. He is in the process of throwing the hit and Greig got his stick up. Be it in order to protect himself, block the hit, or injure Tavares, he was ultimately the player on the defensive. This was at least a hockey play in that a hit was being thrown during the play. Happens quite often.
2. Rielly hits Greig in head - Rielly is the aggressor and clearly targets Greigs head. It was after the whistle and was not a hockey play.
3. Matthews on Dahlin - Matthews is the aggressor and targets Dahlin's head, behind the play. It was behind the play and was not a hockey play.

Let's be clear, I don't really agree with the calls, but that can be said for about 75% of calls made in the NHL on just about every play with every team. We are ultra focused on the Leafs as that's our team, but it's happening in every game. That is OUR bias.

And if there's a clear bias by the NHL and it's officials, it's either a conscious bias or an unconscious bias. This is why I asked the question a few posts ago. If the influence of media, spotlight, etc is causing these decisions being made without real knowledge of it by those making the decisions, that's one thing. If these decisions are being made consciously, then that's a whole other ball of wax.

Bias is tough to swing. Unconscious bias is even harder to swing. If it's simply human nature to judge the Leafs in a certain manner, I'm not real sure what management going to the NHL can do to fix it. If so, you are correct, it's a hurdle they have to overcome. I just don't see how they change it.

But I'm not going to pretend to think that the NHL is making these decisions because Toronto is a large market and they'd actually prefer a small market team wins the cup over the Leafs. That's hogwash.

 

[rdowdall]

In your videos shared, there are clear differences in the plays:

1. Tavares Cross Checked by Greig - Tavares is the aggressor on the play. He is in the process of throwing the hit and Greig got his stick up. Be it in order to protect himself, block the hit, or injure Tavares, he was ultimately the player on the defensive. This was at least a hockey play in that a hit was being thrown during the play. Happens quite often.
2. Rielly hits Greig in head - Rielly is the aggressor and clearly targets Greigs head. It was after the whistle and was not a hockey play.
3. Matthews on Dahlin - Matthews is the aggressor and targets Dahlin's head, behind the play. It was behind the play and was not a hockey play.

Let's be clear, I don't really agree with the calls, but that can be said for about 75% of calls made in the NHL on just about every play with every team. We are ultra focused on the Leafs as that's our team, but it's happening in every game. That is OUR bias.

And if there's a clear bias by the NHL and it's officials, it's either a conscious bias or an unconscious bias. This is why I asked the question a few posts ago. If the influence of media, spotlight, etc is causing these decisions being made without real knowledge of it by those making the decisions, that's one thing. If these decisions are being made consciously, then that's a whole other ball of wax.

Bias is tough to swing. Unconscious bias is even harder to swing. If it's simply human nature to judge the Leafs in a certain manner, I'm not real sure what management going to the NHL can do to fix it. If so, you are correct, it's a hurdle they have to overcome. I just don't see how they change it.

But I'm not going to pretend to think that the NHL is making these decisions because Toronto is a large market and they'd actually prefer a small market team wins the cup over the Leafs. That's hogwash.

I agree totally on your last point. I don't think the NHL is trying to game the system by any stretch. I don't think the NHL is sitting there and saying "We can't let the Leafs make it to the cup". I don't think it is a conscious bias. I think it is possible that it is an unconscious one. I agree it's difficult to deal with something like that. I've taken enough courses about communication and leadership that have an unconscious bias portion to know that there isn't a cut and dried way to handle it other than saying you need to challenge every decision you make to make sure you don't have an unconscious bias. That's tough even in a united organization. In something like the NHL, it would be even more difficult, because you would have to have one organization talking to the NHL trying to convince them that they have an unconscious bias. That would be difficult to sell them on.

All I am saying on the videos is it doesn't seem like the Leafs care that their guys get suspended, and the other teams don't. They always take this media savy approach and are like "That's for someone else to decide" or "That's in the hands of the NHL". If that approach isn't working for your team take a different approach. Be a fan of your team one time and be like "That call is f'ing bullshit. If our guy did that we would have been suspended. Where do I send the cheque?" The most we have gotten is Berube going "I think that hit was a penalty". Really? The 6'7" monster defencemen ran your most important guy, who has a history of back problems, from behind (just as an aside, this wasn't that bad of a hit, but I think you just want to lean in to it at this point), a week after a high hit from the same monster defencmen took out your third line center, and the best you can come up with is "I think it was a penalty". If you don't care Berube, why should I? If you don't care Treliving, then why should I? And I don't buy that something may have happened behind the scenes, because it is Toronto, and if they did say something, I think there would have been rumblings that they did.

Still though, even without that I think these things do have an effect on the players. I think that it can effect the way they play because they are worried about getting suspended, so that impedes them from playing to the level that a player who is not worried about getting suspended. I guess you can get around it by drafting players that don't care if they get suspended. That is a solution. As herman says, team fasthole. The Leafs didn't do that though. So I guess my frustration boiled down is that as an organization, they drafted three super skilled superstars, and then didn't know how to put them in the best position to succeed.

If you haven't made a cup final in 60 years, I think as an organization you would eventually learn how to not shoot yourself in the foot. If you build a team around power play efficiency, well then you should probably understand what happens in the NHL to generate power plays, because if you don't and you don't have any power plays, well then you can't play to your strength. I get that regiments have changed with the Leafs several times over that last 60 years, I am just shocked that one of those regiments wasn't competent enough to build a team to make it to the cup finals. The most successful probably would have been the Pat Quinn lead teams, and they flamed out in the third round in 5 and 6 games. Even then, Quinn couldn't get a defence put together that could get to the finals.

Look I get that this is a sport that has a lot of components to it. I guess I held out hope this time that they had finally done things the right way and built a competent team. It just gets to me that of the 5 teams that haven't made it to a Stanley Cup final in the last 60 years ( The Leafs, The Wild, The Kraken, The Mammoth, The Jets), the Leafs are the only one that has been in the NHL that entire time. It gets to me that they haven't just lucked (by lucked I mean two or three players on the team just going off and dragging their team to the finals) their way into a final at some point along the way, like some of the other teams in the NHL.The Leafs in the last 60 years, have been unable to employ a couple of hockey players that could get them there. And because of that, it feels like it's never going to happen, and if it's never going to happen, then what is the point?