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What are they worth?

H

hobarth

New member
It almost sounds like Matthews is dictating to the Leafs what his next contract should be, is he worth McDavid money, $12.5 mil., McKinnon money, $12.6 mil.?

Has Marner ever been worth Kucherov money, $9.5 mil., Pastrnak money, $11.250 mil.? 

Nylander, it's rumored is asking for north of $10 mil., sure he can ask for that much as a negotiation ploy but is that any where in the realm of reality of what he's worth?

Is resigning any of these players worthwhile at both their current levels or the horror shows of what they expect they're worth?

Is having an awesome regular season team what should be expected from these players at present and potential future remuneration, has covid ended and the potential future earnings of teams justify giving them even better money or is it time they earned their pay by being dominant thru the entire hockey season.

Holding the reins on their pay might mean a significantly weaker future Leaf team, I'm sure the only thing that holds these players to TO is their pay. I believe that Marner was looking to other teams to tender him an offer sheet during his previous negotiations which implies where his loyalty lies.

Day two of free agency was fun, the players signed might make the Leafs better but at least there is potential for a different team, different results instead of the same old, same old, winning a single round in the playoffs doesn't constitute a significantly enough change to heighten our expectations, IMO.
 
hobarth said:
It almost sounds like Matthews is dictating to the Leafs what his next contract should be, is he worth McDavid money, $12.5 mil., McKinnon money, $12.6 mil.?

Has Marner ever been worth Kucherov money, $9.5 mil., Pastrnak money, $11.250 mil.? 

Nylander, it's rumored is asking for north of $10 mil., sure he can ask for that much as a negotiation ploy but is that any where in the realm of reality of what he's worth?

Is resigning any of these players worthwhile at both their current levels or the horror shows of what they expect they're worth?

Is having an awesome regular season team what should be expected from these players at present and potential future remuneration, has covid ended and the potential future earnings of teams justify giving them even better money or is it time they earned their pay by being dominant thru the entire hockey season.

Holding the reins on their pay might mean a significantly weaker future Leaf team, I'm sure the only thing that holds these players to TO is their pay. I believe that Marner was looking to other teams to tender him an offer sheet during his previous negotiations which implies where his loyalty lies.

Day two of free agency was fun, the players signed might make the Leafs better but at least there is potential for a different team, different results instead of the same old, same old, winning a single round in the playoffs doesn't constitute a significantly enough change to heighten our expectations, IMO.
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It took Washington 9 years to win the Cup, but they did. Did they trade Ovechkin and their other good players because they didn't stay with the process? They Leafs just made two very good moves today. Two tough playoff hockey players. Way better than what we lost and Holl, don't get me started on Holl.
Marner was looking for other teams to offer, no not at all, but a great negotiation tactic don't you agree? Marner bleeds Blue and White.  Nylander and Matthews want to be in T.O. here they are Canadian stars. Not some city in the States that doesn't hold a candle to Toronto, North America's fourth largest city. Been to Buffalo lately? Those frikkers probably look across the Lake and salivate.

They want to win a Cup here believe it. Then the Hockey Hall of Fame doesn't matter. Legend does.
 
hobarth said:
It almost sounds like Matthews is dictating to the Leafs what his next contract should be, is he worth McDavid money, $12.5 mil., McKinnon money, $12.6 mil.?

Has Marner ever been worth Kucherov money, $9.5 mil., Pastrnak money, $11.250 mil.? 
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I appreciate that your whole thing is being comically obtuse and repeating the same thing about these players over and over and over again without learning from and listening to anything anyone else says but again, this is not how contracts work in professional sports. Patrick Maholmes is not the highest paid QB in the NFL and many lesser players are signed to comparable per year contracts. In the NBA Tyrese Haliburton, a good and promising young PG but who hasn't made any all-NBA teams, just signed a deal that will pay him more per year than the reigning NBA MVP or any of the guys who made the All-NBA teams ahead of him. In baseball, Anthony Rendon makes more money than Mike Trout.

Seriously, I get that you want to just keep repeating yourself in new threads for attention or whatever but this just makes you sound like you don't really understand the sport you claim to be following.
 
Nik, I don't know didly .... about the NBA and I think it's entirely comical that you think that hockey and basketball are the same sport but OK, go for it.
 
Nik said:
hobarth said:
It almost sounds like Matthews is dictating to the Leafs what his next contract should be, is he worth McDavid money, $12.5 mil., McKinnon money, $12.6 mil.?

Has Marner ever been worth Kucherov money, $9.5 mil., Pastrnak money, $11.250 mil.? 
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I appreciate that your whole thing is being comically obtuse and repeating the same thing about these players over and over and over again without learning from and listening to anything anyone else says but again, this is not how contracts work in professional sports. Patrick Maholmes is not the highest paid QB in the NFL and many lesser players are signed to comparable per year contracts. In the NBA Tyrese Haliburton, a good and promising young PG but who hasn't made any all-NBA teams, just signed a deal that will pay him more per year than the reigning NBA MVP or any of the guys who made the All-NBA teams ahead of him. In baseball, Anthony Rendon makes more money than Mike Trout.

Seriously, I get that you want to just keep repeating yourself in new threads for attention or whatever but this just makes you sound like you don't really understand the sport you claim to be following.
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Your point is clear and well-made, but  Trout is making $37M and Rendon is making $35M (and least in terms of average salary).
 
hobarth said:
Nik, I don't know didly .... about the NBA and I think it's entirely comical that you think that hockey and basketball are the same sport but OK, go for it.
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Maybe you missed, again, what Nik was saying but his point is that the best player in a given professional sports league is not necessarily the highest paid.  So, since you only know and thoroughly understand the NHL, Connor McDavid is the best player but he may not be the best paid.  In this case, McKinnon makes more than him and Matthews will likely be paid even more. 
 
hobarth said:
Nik, I don't know didly .... about the NBA and I think it's entirely comical that you think that hockey and basketball are the same sport but OK, go for it.
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Sure, what I actually said is that this is a universal truth across all of professional sports, cited three examples, and your response is accusing me of saying Basketball and Hockey are the same sport but yeah, clearly I was way off base with calling you obtuse and impervious to actually engaging in honest discussion.
 
A Weekend at Bernier's said:
Maybe you missed, again, what Nik was saying but his point is that the best player in a given professional sports league is not necessarily the highest paid.  So, since you only know and thoroughly understand the NHL, Connor McDavid is the best player but he may not be the best paid.  In this case, McKinnon makes more than him and Matthews will likely be paid even more. 
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But it's more than that. It's not just that the best players may not be the best paid, especially when long term deals are in play as all salaries grow over time, but that just one player signing a deal doesn't set some sort of universal salary cap on all other players below them. This isn't just true of guys at the upper echelon, it's true of guys in the middle and at the bottom too. You can see easy and obvious examples of this all over the place. Victor Hedman is probably, when healthy, one of the top 3 defensemen in the league. Despite that he signed at a discount in Tampa. Did that cap all other defensemen who aren't as good as he is below 7.8 million? No, of course not. If it did, the NHLPA would never be ok with guys taking below market deals. Did Mark Giordano signing below market mean no other comparable guys got more? Again, no. Guys voluntarily signing below market deals doesn't change the market.

The McDavid deal, which at the time was widely reported to have been negotiated down by McDavid himself from a higher offer, was signed 6 years ago when he was a RFA. To compare that as being the standard to be followed(and not in cap % either but just in raw AAV) in a deal being negotiated now with a guy looking at impending UFA status is the height of either ignorance or disingenuousness.

 
I'm giving my opinion on what I consider to be the value of Leaf players which unless they are playing basketball and paid for such has nothing to do with basketball.

Since they are hockey players and should be paid based on their accomplishments as hockey players I find any comparisons based on other sports totally useless.

I watched quite a bit of playoff hockey this year, again nothing to do with basketball, baseball or any other sport, I saw McDavid, try to win, I saw Eichel win, I don't see any Leaf being worth what those two players are, worth as defined is " of substantial or significant value or merit. for all one is worth. : to the fullest extent of one's value or ability see also for what it's worth."

My serious discussion stated quite plainly that Leaf players are overpaid and it's looking like they're going to be even more so in the near future, they're not worth what they presently make and certainly won't be worth more in the near future. Their being overpaid is hindering TO's ability to be competitive, I don't like that, that's my opinion.

Any comparison to other sports means nothing to me, to me this is a hockey forum and inability to keep it as such is trifling, I don't care what goes on in other sport venues, I'm a hockey fan. I'm not pretentious and don't feel that my knowledge of other sports is in any way relevant to hockey.

I'm not a Blue Jay fan and would never discuss them on this hockey forum, if I was a baseball fan I'd go to baseball forums to discuss baseball, not hockey. 

You want a hockey discussion then discuss hockey, I say again that TO's core 4 is overpaid and therefore hindering TO's true ability to compete. If you wanna get really stupid but at least hockey stupid I could sat that Boston wouldn't pay any player more than Bourque because he was the best player on the team, I think TO should at least not pay any of it's players more than the best player in the league unless they are the best player, newsflash they aren't. I don't care about reality, except when it negatively affects my Leafs. Other teams might want to pay their players more than McDavid even tho they're not worth more, that's their problem.

As you say my train of thought is transparent, it is because I'm seeing the same results year after year, and I'm not prone to magical thinking. It's time for a change, not for greater pay, use the core 4 to improve TO's future instead of allowing them to enhance their paycheck, these are not the right players and their level of pay will make it impossible for TO to build the right support to be anything other than an excellent regular season team.

I didn't think Dubie made a mistake paying them as well as he did because I'm all for paying players what they're worth or at least what he and I thought they would become to be worth, Dubie and I were wrong. Nylander has been worth what he's been paid, Marner should've received about Draisaitl money, $8.5, and AM, Eichel money, $10, maybe then TO could've competed.

This is honest opinion about hockey, saying that St.L. was lucky or what have you about winning the Cup isn't honest because it happened, comparing Washington to TO isn't honest, 13 year Ovie contracts, it might be opinion but it isn't honest opinion based on any current scenario.

Nik I actually do read your posts but I don't find much that interests me or that's grounded but it really grates me that you're constantly negative about any other opinions that don't match up with yours, and I don't mean just mine. You cast an negative energy that seems to repel people from posting, I don't attack people directly like you, I'm not that immature and narrow minded. 
 
hobarth said:
I'm giving my opinion on what I consider to be the value of Leaf players which unless they are playing basketball and paid for such has nothing to do with basketball.
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Right. And you're doing it in what is apparently complete ignorance of how salaries in pro sports work. I've given examples in pro hockey, I've given examples across the breadth of the industry as to how salary markets are set to show that it is not unique to the NHL. Given examples of the broader truths of the pro sports industry re-enforces what is also true in Hockey. What you're advocating is a nonsense based fantasy.

hobarth said:
If you wanna get really stupid but at least hockey stupid I could sat that Boston wouldn't pay any player more than Bourque because he was the best player on the team
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Ah yes. The famously successful and well run Bourque-era Bruins.

hobarth said:
Other teams might want to pay their players more than McDavid even tho they're not worth more, that's their problem.
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How salaries actually work in the NHL is, unfortunately, very much the Leafs' problem.

hobarth said:
I don't care about reality, except when it negatively affects my Leafs.
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You've made that abundantly clear but, sadly, you not caring about reality doesn't change what reality is. The Leafs have to negotiate salaries within the confines of the actual NHL salary market and the way the market is influenced by many different contracts and not just single data points and how salaries grow with the cap. Being that ignorant of how salaries are negotiated league-wide, industry-wide, makes the point you're making irrelevant and nonsensical. It's along the lines of criticizing the Leafs for drafting Easton instead of Bedard. That's not how the draft works, what you're saying has nothing to do with how NHL salaries actually work.
 
hobarth said:
Since they are hockey players and should be paid based on their accomplishments as hockey players
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Matthews has a Calder, two Rockets, a Hart and a Ted Lindsay, which means he was voted as the best player in the league in 2021-22 *by his peers*.

Regardless of what he gets, he'll be worth it.
 
Hobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?
 
Treliving answered this question already.  It's hard to get good hockey players.  REALLY hard.  The core 4 are really good hockey players.  Getting rid of them will make the team worse and reduce our chances of winning a cup.  So you pay them the going market rate.

End of story.
 
Is there any Cup winning roster that any of the core 4 couldn't crack?
None that I can think of.

Are any of them grossly out of line with what they're currently paid?
I don't think so.

You might debate Tavares but when he was a UFA, a bunch of teams would have given him that deal to sign him.

The issue is closer to how do they surround these players with enough talent to win a Cup.
Maybe one of them will get flipped to free up dollars for the D, for example. But I'm not sure they're at that point and it would depend on what they're getting back.

The notion that the core 4 needs to be broken up simply because of the team results to date seems flawed. To me, it is a core 5 anyway. I look back to '67 and can't recall many, if any, seasons with a core 5 like they've got right now. If the goaltending holds up and they can land some physical D that can PK, they've got another good shot next spring. Those are significant IFs but they're not in a bad place right now.
 
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