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The Core

hobarth

New member
I'm watching the Edmonton game, I see their core has taken over the game, we watched the TO series against TB, TO won but Kucherov, Point and the rest of TB was enabling TB to outshot TO 2 to 1 in some games and basically outside of one game TB way outplayed TO, thank you Samsonov.

I would say that Samsonov was TO's only core quality player in that 1st round even tho Matthews and Marner scored like core players should.

Many will say that d-men that can defend are a greater assets than offensively capable d-men, which is true of course but those same people will maintain that great scoring d-men are usually poor defensively, yet as a general rule those same offensive d-men are paid more that the supposed defensively adept. Is this a systemic NHL problem or is it more likely that offensive d-men should be far more valuable than the defensive ones because a d-man's responsibility is to keep the puck out of his net which is essentially keeping the puck outside of his zone. A defensive d-man will push/harass/cross check the opposition but ultimately will contribute to the debris that a goaltender has to contend with trying to see where the puck is/coming from. Rielly has never been considered a good defensive d-man but his value escalates in the playoffs because he still does his offensive things while also defending with purpose. Even tho he's widely viewed as a less than ideal d-man he makes considerably more than any other d-man on TO. I would say that Rielly only qualifies as a core player in the playoffs.

We can look at Marner's and Matthews' offensive stats during these playoffs and they are impressive, they are so impressive that these players can or more likely do presume they are doing enough to justify their salaries, it is mostly because of them that TO does so well year after year during the regular season. Even tho they score like superstars, are they worth their salaries, they don't dominate games like McDavid & Drisaitl, like Point & Kucherov, like Marchand & Pastrnak, doesn't being core worthy also means that a player can dominate, take over games in every way rather than simply be dominant statistically via offensive stats. Territorially, like a d-man, a core players value is also his ability to control the game, have and keep the puck, force the play, this doesn't always end up being recognized via goals and assists but while a team's core players are dominating the chances of the opposition scoring diminishes.

In the last game, TO's only dominate looking player was Nylander, to me, he was single handily possessing the puck, creating scoring chances, everything that I expect from a core player. Of course he was able to do this because he wasn't facing Florida's best defensive unit but at the same time he's not paid $11 mil. which is more than any other players on the ice except for TO players, TO's core AM, MM and JT need to be far more dominant than I think they are capable of in order for TO to be seriously considered as a Cup contender.

Basically, what I'm saying is TO's d is a bunch of slugs with one iffy core player and the forwards are led by offensively adept core players who are not possessionally capable enough to justify their salaries, TO can't afford to augment the lineup enough to make up for what TO's core players can't do. We seen it all year, TO kept winning but we never knew which team would show up, TO could be outshot, outplayed but still win, in the playoffs that result is far less likely unless Samsonov becomes the next Price.             
 
Who to keep?

JT because of his contract, remove the C
Knies
Woll

Who to move, the rest including Dubie and Keefe.

What to look for, character players, quality depth.

Is AM playing hurt, maybe/probably, seems to be a regular occurrence, 6'3", the new Lupul? He's only had one full season, this last year was his next best, 74 games, in 7 years he's only had more than 82 points 2 times, nothing about this guy screams superstar, he's more patient than star.

A couple of 1st rounders and a roster player for AM, same for Mitch, 1 1st and roster player for Willie.

Rielly with his contract, get the best that can be received.

Brodie, give him away.

3 more years of Jarnkrok, ugh, buy him out, useless.

Kerfoot, walk no run away, please.

Kampf, don't resign!!!

Holl, give him league minimum at most.

The rest is just too depressing to even think about.
 
I can hear it now, Mitch telling us that after TO is eliminated that he and the team won't change a thing, last 3 games or last 7 years, some short memories residing here, eh?
 
TO had the 7th best defensive record this year, I think it was even better prior to all the newly added depth but TO now has depth. Thru most of the past playoffs TO has had a reasonable defensive record but it's ability to score during those playoffs has been an issue. TO has 2 or less goals scored over the last 6 games, TO's record over those games has been 4Ls and 2Ws, history repeating itself because of magical thinking? 
 
Kucherov and Point each had just 2 even strength points and no goals over six games.  Toronto won that series in part because Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares scored more.
 
I guess we should feel pretty good about our $40 mil. outscoring TB's $19 mil?

I'm gonna feel a lot better when our $40 mil. gives us 2 Cups and a final instead of an iffy 1st round win, once in 7 years, and down 3 to 1 in the 2nd round.

I believe that in the last game against TB, TO was outshot 2 to 1, with all of the awesome defensive depth Dubie acquired we know the d was at fault for this imbalance, it must be the core because they couldn't win battles, control the puck, you name it, Samsonov was insanely good or TO would've been eliminated, what did Marner have after the first 3 games of that series, 8 points I believe, he now has 14. How many points Marner or any of them gets is mostly irrelevant, it's how they're playing, what they're doing when not scoring. Marner at $11 mil. is expected to be a dominant player not only during the regular season, as if, but also in the playoffs.

I think Marner is at his best PKing but where is that 5v5 in the playoffs, it makes no sense. 
 
Well, I was just trying to point out that your original post (suggesting Tampa?s top players outplayed Toronto?s top players) didn?t seem to line up with what I saw.

However, arguing with people on the Internet is never fun so I really should have just kept quiet. My bad!
 
princedpw said:
Well, I was just trying to point out that your original post (suggesting Tampa?s top players outplayed Toronto?s top players) didn?t seem to line up with what I saw.

However, arguing with people on the Internet is never fun so I really should have just kept quiet. My bad!

I've learned to avoid certain people. It goes a long way!
 
hobarth said:
I believe that in the last game against TB, TO was outshot 2 to 1, with all of the awesome defensive depth Dubie acquired we know the d was at fault for this imbalance, it must be the core because they couldn't win battles, control the puck, you name it,

Seriously how intellectually lazy do you have to be for this to be at the core of an argument and not even check to see if it's true? Toronto didn't get outshot 2-1 vs Tampa in Game 6. Shot totals were 33-22 which is 1.5 to 1. But also, Toronto has not been badly outshot or outscored on in the entire playoffs. What you're suggesting isn't showing up in the numbers but, of course, you don't care about the numbers. You care about how this feels which is why you're not bothered to do even the most fundamental of fact checking on what's informing your emotional ranting.

The tale of Toronto's playoffs has been pretty simple. They played Tampa pretty evenly, got the better share of the breaks/bounces and won in 6. They've played Florida pretty evenly, haven't gotten the better share of the breaks/bounces, and are down bad. That's it. No more, no less. They're not giving up a wild number of shots, they're not getting a particularly low number of shots.

The Playoffs are basically RNG at this point. No matter how much people want there to be so they can fit it into their preconceived notions there's just not going to be big and meaningful takes to be drawn from four games with a cumulative score of 11-8.
 
hobarth said:
...
Is AM playing hurt, maybe/probably, seems to be a regular occurrence, 6'3", the new Lupul? He's only had one full season, this last year was his next best, 74 games, in 7 years he's only had more than 82 points 2 times, nothing about this guy screams superstar, he's more patient than star.
...



Player        GPGP    G/GP
Mike Bossy  752    573  1,1260.76
Mario Lemieux9156901,7230.75
Pavel Bure702437 7790.62
Auston Matthews4812995420.62
Alex Ovechkin1,3478221,4850.61
Wayne Gretzky1,4878942,8570.60
Brett Hull1,2697411,3910.58
Bobby Hull1,0636101,1700.57
Tim Kerr6553706740.56
Richard Martin6853847010.56
Phil Esposito1,282 7171,5900.56
Maurice Richard9785449660.56
Cam Neely7263956940.54
Marcel Dionne1,3487311,7710.54
Pat LaFontaine8654681,0130.54
Connor McDavid5693038500.53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[tr][td]
 
Bullfrog said:
hobarth said:
...
Is AM playing hurt, maybe/probably, seems to be a regular occurrence, 6'3", the new Lupul? He's only had one full season, this last year was his next best, 74 games, in 7 years he's only had more than 82 points 2 times, nothing about this guy screams superstar, he's more patient than star.
...



Player        GPGP    G/GP
Mike Bossy  752    573  1,1260.76
Mario Lemieux9156901,7230.75
Pavel Bure702437 7790.62
Auston Matthews4812995420.62
Alex Ovechkin1,3478221,4850.61
Wayne Gretzky1,4878942,8570.60
Brett Hull1,2697411,3910.58
Bobby Hull1,0636101,1700.57
Tim Kerr6553706740.56
Richard Martin6853847010.56
Phil Esposito1,282 7171,5900.56
Maurice Richard9785449660.56
Cam Neely7263956940.54
Marcel Dionne1,3487311,7710.54
Pat LaFontaine8654681,0130.54
Connor McDavid5693038500.53
                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[tr][td]

Shut up facts! NOTHING!
 
I'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.
 
hobarth said:
I'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.
 
Significantly Insignificant said:
hobarth said:
I'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.

These are the same type of posters who then, years later say, "why did they give up on Kessel, see what a force he was in those 2 Cup wins? Why did they give up on Kadri, see what a force he was in that Cup win?". You can't win with these haters. Grass is always greener on the other side
 
Zee said:
Significantly Insignificant said:
hobarth said:
I'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.

These are the same type of posters who then, years later say, "why did they give up on Kessel, see what a force he was in those 2 Cup wins? Why did they give up on Kadri, see what a force he was in that Cup win?". You can't win with these haters. Grass is always greener on the other side
Yup which is why I choose to ignore most of them.
 
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