Nobody elected to Baseball HOF

[Kin]

Not Bonds, not Clemens, not Biggio, not Piazza.

Going to make for a boring weekend in Cooperstown this July:

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/8828339/no-players-elected-baseball-hall-fame-writers

 

[maplesyrup]

Cheek... That's all that matters.

 

[Kin]

Cheek... That's all that matters.

I guess. I don't understand how Biggio doesn't get it. He's basically the exact same player as Robby Alomar.

 

[Champ Kind]

I think this was expected.  While they'll ultimately get in (they being the 'enhanced' players), the writers would want to make sure that there is a bit of an asterik beside their entrance.

 

[Kin]

I think this was expected.  While they'll ultimately get in (they being the 'enhanced' players), the writers would want to make sure that there is a bit of an asterik beside their entrance.

Yeah, but Biggio? The guy was 160 pounds and racked up 3,000 hits.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

Cheek... That's all that matters.

I guess. I don't understand how Biggio doesn't get it. He's basically the exact same player as Robby Alomar.

Was Alomar 1st or 2nd ballot?

 

[bustaheims]

Yeah, but Biggio? The guy was 160 pounds and racked up 3,000 hits.

Yeah. He and Piazza not getting in a bit surprising. I guess, on the surface, neither seem to be surefire HOF guys considering the lack of individual awards and all, but, considering the positions they played, they both put up HOF type numbers.

 

[Kin]

Was Alomar 1st or 2nd ballot?

That may be the logic the BBWAA uses but it's kind of ridiculous.

 

[Champ Kind]

I think this was expected.  While they'll ultimately get in (they being the 'enhanced' players), the writers would want to make sure that there is a bit of an asterik beside their entrance.

Yeah, but Biggio? The guy was 160 pounds and racked up 3,000 hits.

Agreed.  Maybe unintended shrapnell?

 

[Kin]

I think this was expected.  While they'll ultimately get in (they being the 'enhanced' players), the writers would want to make sure that there is a bit of an asterik beside their entrance.

Yeah, but Biggio? The guy was 160 pounds and racked up 3,000 hits.

Agreed.  Maybe unintended shrapnell?

I guess. Biggio's vote total is high enough that it seems pretty clear that he'll get there eventually but it just strikes me as odd that he wouldn't get there.

 

[Justin]

I'd assume there's tons of steroid users in there already that we just don't know about. Why is it fair that great players should be excluded from the HOF because they got caught and others didn't? Clemens and Bonds, steroids or not, were some of the best players of their era.

 

[Kin]

I'd assume there's tons of steroid users in there already that we just don't know about.

Why? Steroid use for athletes is probably limited to the last 40 or so years and for a long time in baseball the idea that you wanted to build muscle wasn't universally accepted. The reasons guys like McGwire, Bonds and Clemens are conspicuous has a lot to do with the sort of noticeable effects that led to suspicion in the first place.

 

[Justin]

I'd assume there's tons of steroid users in there already that we just don't know about.

Why? Steroid use for athletes is probably limited to the last 40 or so years and for a long time in baseball the idea that you wanted to build muscle wasn't universally accepted. The reasons guys like McGwire, Bonds and Clemens are conspicuous has a lot to do with the sort of noticeable effects that led to suspicion in the first place.

I think the likelihood of some players inducted having used steroids is a lot more likely than no inducted players having used steroids at all. Steroids was not a small thing that a few guys used to cheat, it was a full blown culture in baseball. Before the era of testing came upon us you have to believe there are a few guys in there that just never got caught.

 

[Kin]

Steroids was not a small thing that a few guys used to cheat, it was a full blown culture in baseball.

Yeah, but guys from that era are only now becoming eligible for induction. Obviously it's hard to pinpoint a date here but unless you think that this "culture" existed well before anyone has ever said it did the steroid question is only now becoming relevant. Could there be a few guys in who used steroids? Sure. But "tons" like you said? I just don't see how that could be possible.

 

[Justin]

Steroids was not a small thing that a few guys used to cheat, it was a full blown culture in baseball.

Yeah, but guys from that era are only now becoming eligible for induction. Obviously it's hard to pinpoint a date here but unless you think that this "culture" existed well before anyone has ever said it did the steroid question is only now becoming relevant. Could there be a few guys in who used steroids? Sure. But "tons" like you said? I just don't see how that could be possible.

I don't know if there's tons, but of the guys that were inducted over at least the last 10 years chances are there's guys who did steroids. Why should they be okay because they never got caught? Bonds was a dick, Clemons a liar, and both cheaters, but they were still the best players of their era and were better than all the other guys who were also juicing up. I don't know, it just seems wrong to keep them out considering their stature. Ty Cobb allegedly killed a guy and he's in there.

 

[Kin]

I don't know if there's tons, but of the guys that were inducted over at least the last 10 years chances are there's guys who did steroids. Why should they be okay because they never got caught?

I'm not sure how to respond. Are you asking me why you should treat people differently if they get caught doing something wrong than if there's only "chances" that they might have done something wrong?

Ty Cobb allegedly killed a guy and he's in there.

I don't think unfounded allegations of a 90 year old murder are particularly relevant to this issue.

 

[Justin]

I don't know if there's tons, but of the guys that were inducted over at least the last 10 years chances are there's guys who did steroids. Why should they be okay because they never got caught?

I'm not sure how to respond. Are you asking me why you should treat people differently if they get caught doing something wrong than if there's only "chances" that they might have done something wrong?

Ty Cobb allegedly killed a guy and he's in there.

I don't think unfounded allegations of a 90 year old murder are particularly relevant to this issue.

I think we've established there's guys in the hall who have probably taken steroids and we just don't know it. Why should players that are clearly better than them be left out because they got caught? The HOF is a place where the greatest players in history should be enshrined, and like it or not Bonds and Clemens are 2 of the greatest players in history. Put an asterisk by their name if you want, write something like "implicated in the steroid scandal" beside their name, but at the end of the day they more than deserve to be in the HOF based on their play.

 

[Kin]

I think we've established there's guys in the hall who have probably taken steroids and we just don't know it.

We as in you and me? Because all we've established is that you're accusing unnamed players of something and I think you need to actually have things like specific names and evidence before those accusations become meaningful.

Why should players that are clearly better than them be left out because they got caught?

...because they got caught. It's the same principal behind putting bank robbers in jail when you catch them even if there are uncaught bank robbers in the world.

 

[Justin]

I think we've established there's guys in the hall who have probably taken steroids and we just don't know it.

We as in you and me? Because all we've established is that you're accusing unnamed players of something and I think you need to actually have things like specific names and evidence before those accusations become meaningful.

Why should players that are clearly better than them be left out because they got caught?

...because they got caught. It's the same principal behind putting bank robbers in jail when you catch them even if there are uncaught bank robbers in the world.

So you don't agree that in all likelihood there are players in the hall who have taken steroids?

Anyways, all I'm saying is Bonds and Clemens et al shouldn't be penalized for doing something that a) everyone was doing and b) not illegal in baseball at the time. They did take steroids, but they still played better than all the other players on steroids. They were the best of the pack which regardless included juicers and clean players.

 

[Kin]

So you don't agree that in all likelihood there are players in the hall who have taken steroids?

I don't think there's evidence either way and, absent that evidence, I'm not going to base any positions off of conjecture.

Anyways, all I'm saying is Bonds and Clemens et al shouldn't be penalized for doing something that a) everyone was doing and b) not illegal in baseball at the time. They did take steroids, but they still played better than all the other players on steroids. They were the best of the pack which regardless included juicers and clean players.

Well, a) not everyone was using steroids and b) if they were the best of a pack that included clean players that seems to validate my a).