Internal Competition

[slapshot]

Burke said Wednesday there is only one spot open on the team, that being left side third line beside Bozak and Armstrong. Leading candidates are (likely in this order) Kadri, Frattin, Colborne.

While the players may seem to have a lock on their starting jobs, I think it would seem pretty clear that if anyone doesn't keep their foot on the peddle, there are plenty of options - if not losing ice-time, possibly losing a job altogether, depending on where your at on the pecking order. There are guys potentially capable of moving up or moving in.

I can remember times in recent memory, where guys could play like dolts for stretches and there just wasn't anyone worth replacing them with. I think with all these hungry kids knocking at the door, there won't be much room for complacency. Besides that, I think this group as a whole really wants to win together. Seems like the players are welcoming the new guys as real assets for success.

 

[CarltonTheBear]

I found it pretty interesting Burke said that. I wonder what he envisions the 4th line to look like. As far as I see it, Brown is the only one who has a spot locked down there. And of course there's the logjam on the blueline with only 2 spots open for Gunnar, Komisarek, and Franson.

 

[Deebo]

Burke probably views Orr as a lock.

 

[WAYNEINIONA]

Forget Orr and use Kadri, Franson and Colborne for the fourth line. ;D

 

[Kin]

Burke probably views Orr as a lock.

Even then though I'd find it hard to believe that he sees Orr as a lock for 82 games. And, I mean, how is the 4th line centre spot not open? Boyce and Zigomanis won't get a look behind Dupuis? Or is Dupuis behind one of them?

That's been one of the weirder things about Burke's Leafs. They're not very good and there's tons of roster turnover yet there never seems to be spots up for grabs in camp.

 

[Deebo]

Even then though I'd find it hard to believe that he sees Orr as a lock for 82 games.

I think if Orr is healthy, he'll be in the line-up most nights. Before the injury last year, he had 2 straight 82 game seasons.

And, I mean, how is the 4th line centre spot not open? Boyce and Zigomanis won't get a look behind Dupuis? Or is Dupuis behind one of them?

He could have been talking about spots on the 23 man roster, not the line up for each game. He could be planning on carrying 14 forwards, 7 D and 2 goalies and 13 of the 14 could be seen as locks:

Bozak
Kessel
Lupul
Grabovski
Kulemin
MacArthur
Armstrong
Brown
Orr
Connolly
Dupuis
Boyce
Lombardi

Leaving one spot for Kadri, Frattin or whomever.

 

[lamajama]

Doesn't it sound like Orr is no where near ready??

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I wonder why Caputi's name never gets mentioned, it's almost like we picked him up just for the Marlies.

 

[Deebo]

Doesn't it sound like Orr is no where near ready??

Burke has said he'll be ready for camp, I vaguely remember talk that he could have returned late last season but sat out to be safe.

 

[bustaheims]

I wonder why Caputi's name never gets mentioned, it's almost like we picked him up just for the Marlies.

He was hurt for most of last season, so, I think a lot of fans have forgotten about him/written him off. I doubt that's true of management and the coaching staff.

 

[BlueWhiteBlood]

I wonder why Caputi's name never gets mentioned, it's almost like we picked him up just for the Marlies.

He was hurt for most of last season, so, I think a lot of fans have forgotten about him/written him off. I doubt that's true of management and the coaching staff.

Well, it would be nice for the management to acknowledge him once and a while as maybe a factor for that open spot on the left wing.

Anyway, I hope it's not as locked down as Burke apparently makes it seem and that there are more jobs threatened to be stolen in camp, to me that's internal competition.

On the back end though, I really think we have maybe a bit too much depth and one of these guys have to go. Komisarek is like the elephant in the room!

 

[ZBBM]

That's been one of the weirder things about Burke's Leafs. They're not very good and there's tons of roster turnover yet there never seems to be spots up for grabs in camp.

"Weird" is an understatement.  "Ludicrous" is more like it.  A team that hasn't made the playoffs in years should, by definition, have all kinds of roster spots up for grabs.  Last time I looked, we had exactly zero superstars.  There's not a single person on this team that's good enough to be guaranteed a certain position on a certain line.

In fact, I am flabbergasted that Burke said this.  How in the heck is this any different than the (admittedly overhyped) "country club atmosphere" that the pundits were so fond of raving about before BB came?

 

[Kin]

Dupuis
Boyce
Lombardi

Even then though, should any of these three guys really be written in pen for the start of the season?

 

[Bender]

Burke probably views Orr as a lock.

Even then though I'd find it hard to believe that he sees Orr as a lock for 82 games. And, I mean, how is the 4th line centre spot not open? Boyce and Zigomanis won't get a look behind Dupuis? Or is Dupuis behind one of them?

That's been one of the weirder things about Burke's Leafs. They're not very good and there's tons of roster turnover yet there never seems to be spots up for grabs in camp.

Or people tend to sound byte everything he says and pick the juiciest ones. He hates Europeans, finesse players and only believes in three things: Pugnacity.... eh, I think you can guess the rest.

Anyway, from a recent TSN article:

Burke went on to say that if more than one young player impresses in camp, the team is willing to adapt.

"At least one, it doesn't mean that someone else can't do it too; if two of these kids can make it and someone's in the press box, then that's fine, too."

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=375250

Its funny how people think how stubborn he can be. I think he's an adaptable person and will do whatever it takes to win. As impossible as this is, if the Marlies had a better chance to win than the actual Leafs team, he'd play the Marlies.

But also let's not forget that Burke's said on many occasions that he does not pick the final roster. Many pieces are in place, but it's up to Ron Wilson to go for player X over player Y out of that roster. I'm sure he and Burke have long discussions at training camp in regards to who impressed, who will be cut and who will stay. I can't imagine that, at least at some level, the roster isn't picked through consensus based on who is available.

 

[Kin]

"Weird" is an understatement.  "Ludicrous" is more like it.  A team that hasn't made the playoffs in years should, by definition, have all kinds of roster spots up for grabs.  Last time I looked, we had exactly zero superstars.  There's not a single person on this team that's good enough to be guaranteed a certain position on a certain line.

In fact, I am flabbergasted that Burke said this.  How in the heck is this any different than the (admittedly overhyped) "country club atmosphere" that the pundits were so fond of raving about before BB came?

Well, where I'd hesitate there is that a training camp isn't the be all and end all of player evaluation. The few weeks of training camp, in most cases, shouldn't trump what you saw all of last year so even if Mac-Grabo-Kulemin don't look great in camp, I'd still go with that as a line to start the season. True, you don't want to see anyone loafing but I also don't need to see Phil Kessel killing himself in training camp to know he's the most talented offensive player on the Leafs.

Where I agree, though, is that what I just said really only applies to guys who earned their spots based on what they did last year. I really don't see how that applies to guys like Boyce, Bozak, Dupuis, Orr and so on.

 

[Bender]

That's been one of the weirder things about Burke's Leafs. They're not very good and there's tons of roster turnover yet there never seems to be spots up for grabs in camp.

"Weird" is an understatement.  "Ludicrous" is more like it.  A team that hasn't made the playoffs in years should, by definition, have all kinds of roster spots up for grabs.  Last time I looked, we had exactly zero superstars.  There's not a single person on this team that's good enough to be guaranteed a certain position on a certain line.

In fact, I am flabbergasted that Burke said this.  How in the heck is this any different than the (admittedly overhyped) "country club atmosphere" that the pundits were so fond of raving about before BB came?

To be perfectly honest, this sounds like it came from a politician. Zero in on one specific thing without looking at other things that he's said and aim for the jugular. Burke is a mouthpiece and will say what's on his mind, but there's broken telephone now and again by looking at select quotations. And some things he says I feel may completely accurate: like the whole pugnacity thing. I think his comments over the past few years would back that up.

I'm not a Burke apologist, but context does matter.

 

[Kin]

To be perfectly honest, this sounds like it came from a politician. Zero in on one specific thing without looking at other things that he's said and aim for the jugular. Burke is a mouthpiece and will say what's on his mind, but there's broken telephone now and again by looking at select quotations. And some things he says I feel may completely accurate: like the whole pugnacity thing. I think his comments over the past few years would back that up.

To be honest, you're the only one who seems to be all that focused on Burke's quotes here. My statement there, and I assume ZZBM's agreement, is based on what's actually happened in Leafs camps in the last few years where roster spots/positions don't seem overly connected to who plays well in camp.

 

[Bender]

To be perfectly honest, this sounds like it came from a politician. Zero in on one specific thing without looking at other things that he's said and aim for the jugular. Burke is a mouthpiece and will say what's on his mind, but there's broken telephone now and again by looking at select quotations. And some things he says I feel may completely accurate: like the whole pugnacity thing. I think his comments over the past few years would back that up.

To be honest, you're the only one who seems to be all that focused on Burke's quotes here. My statement there, and I assume ZZBM's agreement, is based on what's actually happened in Leafs camps in the last few years where roster spots/positions don't seem overly connected to who plays well in camp.

The thread began with a very general statement that Burke made regarding roster spots. If that's the premise for anger at Burke for not having spots open then there's evidence to refute that. I was also speaking moreso to ZZBM's seemingly angry post about it. Burke has stated that if a kid is better suited to play over a vet then they would go with the kid. Therefore I think words like "Ludicrous" to describe the situation, and referring to "Burke said this" (i.e. only one roster spot open) is very premature and probably off the mark. To go on to talk about the "country club atmosphere" is, therefore, also premature.

In regards to the previous camp it would depend on what you're talking about. Is it in regards to a specific player or number of players? I don't recall off the top of my head who played well in the preseason and who didn't. I would argue that a good pre-season doesn't mean a player deserves a roster spot necessarily. I think you mentioned Kessel not having to come out all guns ablazing. There's quite a lot of variables that would go into a good camp, not just scoring or a good few games, but also whether or not the player can sustain their role against stronger competition, through a full season and so forth.

Moreover, I wouldn't pin it all on Burke. Out of the 50 or so (ballparking) players at camp, I would think that Wilson, would play a strong part in whittling that number down, although I could be wrong. 

 

[bustaheims]

To be honest, you're the only one who seems to be all that focused on Burke's quotes here. My statement there, and I assume ZZBM's agreement, is based on what's actually happened in Leafs camps in the last few years where roster spots/positions don't seem overly connected to who plays well in camp.

I understand where that perception comes from, but, the truth is, as fans, we really only get to see a small part of what actually goes on as part of training camp - the pre-season games. For things like scrimmages, practices, drills, intersquad games, etc, we generally have to rely on 3rd parties for whatever information we can glean, and, as Burke and Wilson have said in the past, the things we don't get to see hold a lot of weight in their decision making process.

 

[Deebo]

Dupuis
Boyce
Lombardi

Even then though, should any of these three guys really be written in pen for the start of the season?

I just listed 13 forwardss, I didn't put much thought into the specific names. Burke could have other players in mind or he could be thinking abouy carrying 8D and 13 forwards.

I was just saying that he could be talking roster spots instead of where players play in the line-up. There could be one forward roster spot available but there is still competetion in camp for things like 4th line centre and 3rd line winger.