Game 59 Sat Feb 18/2012 Leafs at Canucks 7 pm CBC, am640

[ZBBM]

Ugh, glad I had to go to my girls' concert tonight.  I didn't have much hope for this one anyway.

Hopefully this will hand the starter's reins to Gus.  We have a 4-game homestand coming up and need to rack up at least 6 points out of it.

 

[WAYNEINIONA]

I didn't expect to win this one. The Canucks are on a hot streak and Luongo is on his game. We are not Cup contenders. Vancouver is and it was obvious tonight. We had a couple of scoring chances that we should have buried and we didn't and a couple of unfortunate plays, Lombardi fanning on the puck clearance and Mc arthur tripping on the puck that cost us goals. It was one of those nights when the breaks just didn't go our way or it would have been a less embarassing loss. I don't think we're out of it yet but we're pushing our luck relying on the teams below us to lose.

 

[ZBBM]

I didn't see this one but it sounds to me like it didn't tell us anything we already didn't know.  We are young team that, at best, is a bubble team.  No surprises there.

The chicken-and-egg discussion in the GDT about team defense and goaltending is one that we've been having ever since I first came on this site 10 years ago.  Someone put it succinctly: the team hasn't played well in our own end since Burns.  It's obvious that Wilson has not and will not get the problem solved, but in all honesty other than maybe Hitch I don't know who would.  Paul Maurice came in with a rep for building good defensive teams and, to my chagrin, he was a flop.  (Although Wilson has been worse IMO.)

 

[Stickytape]

I missed the first period as I was out to dinner with family, but I predicted on the way home that it would be 2-0 Vancouver after the 1st, and that both goals would have been scored in the first period.  I'm not even proud that I was right, as it's become such an obvious pattern.

I saw very little effort out there.  Guys like Brown stood out like sore thumbs with some nice hustle, but everyone else.. ugh.  Lupul made some nice plays, but his mind was entirely on the net.  And it's a shame to see Kessel get so frustrated in a game.  The team lacks leadership, and there are a lot of rookies looking to him to set an example, whether he wants them to or not.

Reimer was a big factor, too, though.  He looked incredibly shaky in net and mostly just flinched.  Everyone seems to know to pick the posts as he doesn't even try to stop those shots.  I feel terrible about the way his season turned out after such a solid start, but he just doesn't seem to have it in him right now.

I don't know what to think about our chances.  But whatever.  I'll still be there Tuesday, cheering my heart out.

 

[itsgametime]

a few observations: (I only watched the first period)

Ron Wilson for the most part is a run and gun type coach - against Vancouver I think a defensive system playing style would have been the way to go.  Leafs play the same style and system game in and game out - this needs to change.

Keith Aulie had no business being in this game - he has spent too much time in the AHL then gets put out there against the Sedin twins - stupid.  Wilson fails miserably at line matching.

Who is the #1 goalie?  Wilson needs to nominate a #1 then stay with him EXCEPT when there is a back to back.  Both goalies are constantly looking to the bench second guessing themselves.  Goalie situation has been totally miss handled.

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

I don't watch much college hockey, can you name any comparables who were drafted high and stood out in college as freshmen?  How much ice time is he getting from what you saw?  Any context?

Because otherwise I could just pick out 2 games where he has scored and played well and said the drafting is going well, based on that claim.

 

[itsgametime]

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

I don't watch much college hockey, can you name any comparables who were drafted high and stood out in college as freshmen?  How much ice time is he getting from what you saw?  Any context?

he is playing a regular shift.  Many stand outs in college hockey I cant tell you which are freshmen... cant break it down further at the moment (let me see what I can do on this)

 

[CarltonTheBear]

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

I don't watch much college hockey, can you name any comparables who were drafted high and stood out in college as freshmen?  How much ice time is he getting from what you saw?  Any context?

Because otherwise I could just pick out 2 games where he has scored and played well and said the drafting is going well, based on that claim.

Biggs is the 9th highest scoring freshman in the CCHA, and the 6th highest goal totals of freshman in that league. He's also the youngest player on his team. The majority of the freshmen above him are also older than Biggs. So I wouldn't really be too worried about his stats right now.

 

[itsgametime]

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

I don't watch much college hockey, can you name any comparables who were drafted high and stood out in college as freshmen?  How much ice time is he getting from what you saw?  Any context?

Because otherwise I could just pick out 2 games where he has scored and played well and said the drafting is going well, based on that claim.

Biggs is the 9th highest scoring freshman in the CCHA, and the 6th highest goal totals of freshman in that league. He's also the youngest player on his team. The majority of the freshmen above him are also older than Biggs. So I wouldn't really be too worried about his stats right now.

He is young.  I was just pointing out that he did not stand out at all.  No flashes in the 2 full games that I watched where he was getting regular ice time. 

 

[GhostofPotvin29]

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

I don't watch much college hockey, can you name any comparables who were drafted high and stood out in college as freshmen?  How much ice time is he getting from what you saw?  Any context?

Because otherwise I could just pick out 2 games where he has scored and played well and said the drafting is going well, based on that claim.

Biggs is the 9th highest scoring freshman in the CCHA, and the 6th highest goal totals of freshman in that league. He's also the youngest player on his team. The majority of the freshmen above him are also older than Biggs. So I wouldn't really be too worried about his stats right now.

He is young.  I was just pointing out that he did not stand out at all.  No flashes in the 2 full games that I watched where he was getting regular ice time.

I think the point that's trying to be made is that it is pretty unfair to say the Leafs "failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks" and then use Tyler Biggs as an example based on a few games you have seen him play and were not impressed with.

 

[Tigger]

Um, how do the Leafs develop a player while he's in university?

 

[itsgametime]

The Leafs as an organization have failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks.  I have watched a few Miami games and Tyler Biggs has not impressed - I don't care if he's a freshmen - as a first rounder he needs to stand out and both games that I watched he was practically invisible.  He is no where near even AHL ready.

I don't watch much college hockey, can you name any comparables who were drafted high and stood out in college as freshmen?  How much ice time is he getting from what you saw?  Any context?

Because otherwise I could just pick out 2 games where he has scored and played well and said the drafting is going well, based on that claim.

Biggs is the 9th highest scoring freshman in the CCHA, and the 6th highest goal totals of freshman in that league. He's also the youngest player on his team. The majority of the freshmen above him are also older than Biggs. So I wouldn't really be too worried about his stats right now.

He is young.  I was just pointing out that he did not stand out at all.  No flashes in the 2 full games that I watched where he was getting regular ice time.

I think the point that's trying to be made is that it is pretty unfair to say the Leafs "failed BADLY at drafting AND at developing their picks" and then use Tyler Biggs as an example based on a few games you have seen him play and were not impressed with.

That is ABSOLUTELY what I was NOT trying to do - leafs draft history speaks for it self.  and not blaming Burke..blaming the Organization...here's just a few

Tlusty
Rask
Steen
Colaiacovo
Boyes
Cereda
Antropov

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Tlusty
Rask
Steen
Colaiacovo
Boyes
Cereda
Antropov

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here in regards to the Leafs drafting. All those guys are NHLers right now (and some of them are pretty darn good ones) except for Cereda who had his career cut short because of a freak injury.

 

[itsgametime]

Tlusty
Rask
Steen
Colaiacovo
Boyes
Cereda
Antropov

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here in regards to the Leafs drafting. All those guys are NHLers right now (and some of them are pretty darn good ones) except for Cereda who had his career cut short because of a freak injury.

their drafting sucks

 

[CarltonTheBear]

Tlusty
Rask
Steen
Colaiacovo
Boyes
Cereda
Antropov

Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here in regards to the Leafs drafting. All those guys are NHLers right now (and some of them are pretty darn good ones) except for Cereda who had his career cut short because of a freak injury.

their drafting sucks

And to prove that point you made a list of legitimate NHLers they've drafted? One's arguably the best back-up goalie in the NHL. One is a top-6 forward, another is a very good 3rd liner, another is a top-4 defenceman.

 

[Tigger]

That is ABSOLUTELY what I was NOT trying to do

That's confusing because it's actually what you are doing.

 

[Bonsixx]

That was a fun game! From the comedy of errors that was MacArthur and Lombardi, to Reimer standing still while wide open Canuck players picked corners on him, to Gustavsson's continued struggles locating and covering pucks in his crease ... Go Leafs Go!

 

[Nik]

That is ABSOLUTELY what I was NOT trying to do - leafs draft history speaks for it self.  and not blaming Burke..blaming the Organization...here's just a few

Tlusty
Rask
Steen
Colaiacovo
Boyes
Cereda
Antropov

I'm sorry but none of that makes any sense. You're blaming the organization? But between the drafting of Biggs and the drafting of Antropov, who was a good pick, the team has changed coaches, Presidents, GMs, scouting directors, the location of their AHL affiliate, owners and just about everything else a team can change. It's an entirely new organization. Unless you're blaming the logo there's no connection there.

 

[Stebro]

The drafting has been pretty awful for a long time, but it's not just about how we draft, it's about how we work with players that are drafted. We should look at Detroit for example. Here are guys that they've drafted in the 2nd round or later since 1998:

Pavel Datsyuk
Henrik Zetterberg
Jonathan Ericsson
Jiri Hudler
Valtteri Filppula
Kyle Quincey
Jimmy Howard
Johan Franzen
Justin Abdelkader
Darren Helm
Tomas Tatar
Calle J?rnkrok
Teemu Pulkkinen
Petr Mrazek

Here are some examples drafted by the leafs during the same period:

Alex Ponikarovski
Mikael Tellqvist
Kyle Wellwood
Jay Harrison
Matthew Stajan
John Mitchell
Anton Stralman
Nikolai Kulemin
James Reimer
Viktor Stalberg
Matt Frattin
Carl Gunnarsson

It doesn't look all that bad when we compare, BUT...Do we have a Zetterberg? No. Do we have a Datsyuk? No. Do we have a Howard? No. Do we have a Franzen? No. People underrate the value of drafting good late. It seems as if a lot of GM etc thinks that the draft is determined by how high you pick in overall. But anyone could make a great pick if they had a top 5. The key is to make great picks in later rounds, where the scouting is more difficult. Are Detroit more lucky? No. I just think that they have better staff.

 

[Nik]

The drafting has been pretty awful for a long time, but it's not just about how we draft, it's about how we work with players that are drafted. We should look at Detroit for example. Here are guys that they've drafted in the 2nd round or later since 1998:

We really shouldn't. Detroit is an extreme outlier in this discussion. They're famous for having been extremely good at this very specific thing. Saying the Leafs have been "awful" because they haven't been at the level of the hands-down best in the league just doesn't add up. The Leafs track record is actually pretty good when it comes to this sort of thing in an overall context.

It doesn't look all that bad when we compare, BUT...Do we have a Zetterberg? No. Do we have a Datsyuk? No. Do we have a Howard? No. Do we have a Franzen? No. People underrate the value of drafting good late. It seems as if a lot of GM etc thinks that the draft is determined by how high you pick in overall. But anyone could make a great pick if they had a top 5. The key is to make great picks in later rounds, where the scouting is more difficult. Are Detroit more lucky? No. I just think that they have better staff.

But again, outside of Detroit, who does? Look at Philadelphia's stretch over that same time or Vancouvers and you find more or less the same thing as you seen in Toronto, a bunch of pretty good players but nobody great. Likewise, it's a bit of an arbitrary cut-off at '98 that paints Detroit in the best possible light. If you extend it back to '96 instead of '98 then Detroit's list adds nobody of consequence whereas Toronto adds Kaberle and some bit pieces like Adam Mair and Shawn Thornton.

Moreover, you're cherry picking and giving Detroit credit in areas you're not giving Toronto. Pulkkinen, Mrazek and Jarnkrok haven't done anything in the NHL but they make Detroit's list while guys like Brad Ross and Greg McKegg aren't there in favour of guys like Jay Harrison and Mikael Tellqvist.

But to the overarching point....so what? The people running the Maple Leafs aren't the same people who ran the team when every single person on the Leafs list was drafted. Whether or not Detroit has a better staff than Toronto is a fair question, but you can't hold up Quinn's and JFJ's drafts as evidence of that.