2025-26 Toronto Maple Leafs General Discussion

[bustaheims]

He didn't. cw has the goods on that, but whatever.

He did and he didn't. He was very productive early in series before things really tighten up. Once they did, he - and most of the rest of the roster, to be fair - very much did suck. Also, on the PP (like everyone, except, in this case, he was largely the QB, so, his inability to adapt had a cascading effect).

Early playoff games are often more wide open, higher scoring affairs. Marner is great in those. That helps get the team extra games, sure. Late series games - where series are won or lost - when teams need their stars to be stars to get around the tighter checking and greater defensive emphasis, he struggled to produce and, at times, struggled defensively, as well.

I think we all would have traded some games 1-3 production for more games 5-7 production. Would likely have meant a few more series wins, considering how many late series games were decided by 1 goal (excluding empty netters, at least).

 

[mr grieves]

He didn't. cw has the goods on that, but whatever.

Shoulda moved off of that mix before Treliving even got here. Who blames like Andropov for the USSR’s fall? Or Biden for the USA’s?

 

[Arn]

I presume Marner will get a video tribute on the board in an intermission. Be interesting to see how that goes.

I wouldn’t boo him. I don’t think he deserves it. I’d ignore him though.

I expect he’ll get it and some of it will be very vitriolic.

 

[Arn]

After watching Berube throw away another valuable point with a highly questionable OT lineup decision, I am just about at the place where I think they'll miss the playoffs. And that wouldn't be such a bad thing if it triggers a management/coaching change.

I’m still a Leafs fan. And I want them to win. And I enjoy it when they do. And I tut loudly when they don’t.

But, I’m very conflicted cos I feel like it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to hit a bit of a, say, 10 game skid where they go something like 2-2-6 or 2-1-7 and drop well behind a wild card spot.

I then hope that the executive structure above Treliving is savvy enough to ban him from making big moves in.

I’d entertain moderate to big trades out, short of trading out our top prospects such as Cowan.

Then new GM and coach in the summer and utilise whatever capital they manage to bring in to further tweak things.

 

[ZBBM]

He did and he didn't. He was very productive early in series before things really tighten up. Once they did, he - and most of the rest of the roster, to be fair - very much did suck. Also, on the PP (like everyone, except, in this case, he was largely the QB, so, his inability to adapt had a cascading effect).

Early playoff games are often more wide open, higher scoring affairs. Marner is great in those. That helps get the team extra games, sure. Late series games - where series are won or lost - when teams need their stars to be stars to get around the tighter checking and greater defensive emphasis, he struggled to produce and, at times, struggled defensively, as well.

I think we all would have traded some games 1-3 production for more games 5-7 production. Would likely have meant a few more series wins, considering how many late series games were decided by 1 goal (excluding empty netters, at least).

Well, I blame the league for neutering players like Marner in the playoffs with the reffing. Sure, there are similar players (Kucherov, say) who've been successful, but I think the general point holds. We've been over that ground before, of course.

Incidentally, I've gone out of my way to defend Marner on here because he is an excellent player and the team is markedly worse without him. I am not personally a fan of his. In fact, I'm sorry to say, there's no one on this team who I REALLY like. I don't know why, but I can't warm up to Matthews or Nylander or Tavares etc. Love to see them play well, but not a fannity-fan.

 

[ZBBM]

I’m still a Leafs fan. And I want them to win. And I enjoy it when they do. And I tut loudly when they don’t.

But, I’m very conflicted cos I feel like it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to hit a bit of a, say, 10 game skid where they go something like 2-2-6 or 2-1-7 and drop well behind a wild card spot.

I then hope that the executive structure above Treliving is savvy enough to ban him from making big moves in.

I’d entertain moderate to big trades out, short of trading out our top prospects such as Cowan.

Then new GM and coach in the summer and utilise whatever capital they manage to bring in to further tweak things.

Agree with you 100% except I'd also move Cowan for the right deal. I don't see him as anything awful special.

 

[cw]

Treliving is responsible for Marner sucking in the playoffs?

During Marner's time in Toronto, he led the team in scoring, PP scoring & SH scoring in the regular season and in the playoffs.
He was 1st in +/- among forwards in the playoffs.
If he led the team in scoring during the playoffs and forwards in +/-, I don't get why he is the one tagged as THE Leafs player "sucking in the playoffs"
His playoff ppg is among the best in Leafs history (5th, 40+GP) 0.01 behind Sundin and the best on his team during his time in Toronto.
Treliving is responsible for not defending his player much when he was getting ripped in the media with arguably bogus criticism.
I suspect it was to make it ugly for Marner to return to help Treliving trade him.

 

[bustaheims]

Well, I blame the league for neutering players like Marner in the playoffs with the reffing. Sure, there are similar players (Kucherov, say) who've been successful, but I think the general point holds. We've been over that ground before, of course.

I’d say working through that is what separates the good players from the great ones. Marner is a good player, no question. He has yet to truly show greatness.

 

[herman]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2014454281747771401

 

[Arn]

Agree with you 100% except I'd also move Cowan for the right deal. I don't see him as anything awful special.

My only reason for picking out Cowan is really we do need to hang on to *some* players to ice a competent roster. And I’d rather him than, say, a Maccelli or Domi. Then play him a lot in various situations the rest of this season to see what you might have.

Which we’re kind of already seeing a bit to be fair.

 

[rdowdall]

I’d say working through that is what separates the good players from the great ones. Marner is a good player, no question. He has yet to truly show greatness.

This is fair, and I think that is where the criticism from fans comes from. They see other superstars like McDavid, MacKinnon, Kucherov, etc break through and it just never happened here in Toronto for Matthews, Nylander, and Marner. Some of that might be how they were handled, or the fact that they had a bit of a campfire problem where they were all looking to the other one to step up.

 

[mr grieves]

https://twitter.com/x/status/2014454281747771401

I generally don’t like Friedman, because he fills a lot of airtime and column space saying a lot of nothing (this could happen or not happen), but this is pretty detailed reporting.

Key section to my eye is here:

That summer, on Aug. 23, Matthews signed a four-year extension 10 months before hitting unrestricted free agency. There is a story behind this no one knew. According to several sources, the groundwork for that contract was actually laid in the summer of 2022. Two years before he could leave, one year before he could even sign, the Maple Leafs wanted to know if there was any reason to worry. After conversations about the state of the franchise and how everyone envisioned the future, Matthews told the Leafs he would re-sign as long as the train didn’t suffer a Fugitive-like crash — a promise he kept.
Two years before Marner could exit, there were conversations, but the Maple Leafs did not receive the same assurances. There was internal discussion about trading him, but as Shanahan has said many times, he was determined to bet on talent. He believed, like his mid-90s Red Wings, the Maple Leafs would figure it out.

This is when a competently managed team would’ve traded the player, or used its assets to really change the dynamic around him (making the sort of acquisitions Vegas and Florida routinely do). It’s on Shanahan that the former didnt happen and on his handpicked GMs that the latter didn’t. I’d still boo Marner tho.

 

[Bill_Berg]

I expect and want the booing. He bailed. Booooo.

 

[cabber24]

During Marner's time in Toronto, he led the team in scoring, PP scoring & SH scoring in the regular season and in the playoffs.
He was 1st in +/- among forwards in the playoffs.
If he led the team in scoring during the playoffs and forwards in +/-, I don't get why he is the one tagged as THE Leafs player "sucking in the playoffs"
His playoff ppg is among the best in Leafs history (5th, 40+GP) 0.01 behind Sundin and the best on his team during his time in Toronto.
Treliving is responsible for not defending his player much when he was getting ripped in the media with arguably bogus criticism.
I suspect it was to make it ugly for Marner to return to help Treliving trade him.

We're beating a deadhorse but Matthews is equally to blame. Led the team in playoff scoring... I cannot believe anyone who watched him over his time in the playoffs with the Leafs would say that was good enough. It's ridiculous.

 

[Bender]

They certainly can. And they can certainly be idiots at the same time.

Obviously the implication of what I'm saying is just booing doesn't automatically make you an idiot, and neither is booing Marner if they so choose.

You can be pissed at Marner and management at the same time.

 

[Bender]

He didn't. cw has the goods on that, but whatever.

CW's words are gospel. Got it.

 

[Bender]

Well, I blame the league for neutering players like Marner in the playoffs with the reffing. Sure, there are similar players (Kucherov, say) who've been successful, but I think the general point holds. We've been over that ground before, of course.

Incidentally, I've gone out of my way to defend Marner on here because he is an excellent player and the team is markedly worse without him. I am not personally a fan of his. In fact, I'm sorry to say, there's no one on this team who I REALLY like. I don't know why, but I can't warm up to Matthews or Nylander or Tavares etc. Love to see them play well, but not a fannity-fan.

It's the reffing's fault now. Good lord. They all play in the same league. How good has McDavid and Draisaitl been points wise? They've all underachieved and that's on the players and the org and Marner was part of that for 9 relatively disappointing playoff runs. Nobody should be above that criticism.

 

[cabber24]

It's the reffing's fault now. Good lord. They all play in the same league. How good has McDavid and Draisaitl been points wise? They've all underachieved and that's on the players and the org and Marner was part of that for 9 relatively disappointing playoff runs. Nobody should be above that criticism.

Oilers have gotten value from the stars, Leafs didn't.

 

[Bender]

I generally don’t like Friedman, because he fills a lot of airtime and column space saying a lot of nothing (this could happen or not happen), but this is pretty detailed reporting.

Key section to my eye is here:


This is when a competently managed team would’ve traded the player, or used its assets to really change the dynamic around him (making the sort of acquisitions Vegas and Florida routinely do). It’s on Shanahan that the former didnt happen and on his handpicked GMs that the latter didn’t. I’d still boo Marner tho.

To me that really indicates that the player is 100% thinking in their own interests, which is fine, but given that there was little to indicate he was going to give that much loyalty to the team, he should've been traded. You need some level of buy in beyond the individual. As you say, Vegas would've traded him and said to any player if you don't intend to sign here when we want to keep you, despite us trying to bend over backwards for you then you're gone.

Personally I would've thought hard about trading him once the agent went to the media to complain about Matthews' deal publicly.