Author Topic: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM  (Read 8547 times)

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Offline Etiam Vultus

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 02:58:22 PM »
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #15 on: May 08, 2012, 02:58:22 PM »

Offline moon111

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2012, 07:58:17 PM »
To be fair, I think Montreal and Toronto should switch draft positions.
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Offline Zee

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2012, 08:58:04 AM »
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.

Offline Etiam Vultus

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2012, 01:00:18 PM »
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.

As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

I took Dudley's comments that he had not been contacted yet by the Habs with a large truckload of salt.  It reminded me of the free agents who sign a new contracts one minute after the free agency period begins and we are expected to believe that their new teams were not in touch with them and their agents until just then.

FWIW, the Leafs and Habs cannot switch draft positions since there is a league rule that there is no compensation when an executive moves from one team to another.

Online bustaheims

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2012, 01:32:03 PM »
As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

Until such time as Dudley gives his notice and the 30 day period after that has passed, he is under contract to the Toronto Maple Leafs, and any other organization requires their permission to approach him and offer him a position. It's not a courtesy, it's the rules. Going around those rules is considered tampering.
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Offline Corn Flake

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2012, 01:54:29 PM »
We are told Burke and Bergevin are talking.   Dudley said a week ago he hadn't been offered anything, yet which also seems to suggest the Habs don't have permission yet.

The fact nothing has happened yet suggests everyone is playing nice here and/or maybe Burke is trying to do something to keep Dudley on board.  If Burke was going to let him go, it probably would have been done by now.

Offline Etiam Vultus

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2012, 02:04:27 PM »
As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

Until such time as Dudley gives his notice and the 30 day period after that has passed, he is under contract to the Toronto Maple Leafs, and any other organization requires their permission to approach him and offer him a position. It's not a courtesy, it's the rules. Going around those rules is considered tampering.

Are these rules written down?

This is different from player's contracts.  This is an executive.  If Bell wants to hire a Rogers executive, they do not need to ask Rogers permission before they speak to him or her.  They DO need to make sure that there is no contractual provision that the individual cannot make the move.

If Dudley's contract permits him to take a job with another club, then it makes no sense that the Leafs can thwart the intent of that clause by refusing to grant permission for the other club to speak to him. 

Online bustaheims

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2012, 02:07:42 PM »
Are these rules written down?

Yes. They're part of the various agreements NHL teams have with the league, etc. I'm pretty sure it's even written into the individual contracts. There's a reason teams are constantly asking for permission to talk to and/or hire members of other teams' front offices - they have to. Teams will often dent other teams that permission, even in some seemingly ridiculous circumstances. It happened to the Leafs a few years ago when Florida wouldn't let Nieuwendyk go until the day his contract officially expired.

As for Dudley's contract, I doubt it specifically states he can take a job with another team. What it allows is a period where he can terminate the contract with the Leafs. Until he does that (which, as far as we know, he has not), he's bound by all the terms of the contract - which includes not taking a job with another NHL team.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 02:10:01 PM by bustaheims »
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Offline Etiam Vultus

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2012, 02:26:03 PM »
I would be surprised if Dudley's contract does not explicitly state that he is permitted to discuss a more senior position with another team and to accept such a position, provided it complies with certain time constraints, e.g. 30 days following the end of the season.

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job. 

Offline Corn Flake

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2012, 02:41:50 PM »
I would be surprised if Dudley's contract does not explicitly state that he is permitted to discuss a more senior position with another team and to accept such a position, provided it complies with certain time constraints, e.g. 30 days following the end of the season.

It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

Teams don't usually ever stand in the way of this type of thing but there is always the "ask permission" part.. you can't have an exec talking to teams whenever he feels like it.  Given the timing, division, draft situations and Dudley's role in the latter, this one is pretty sensitive.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2012, 03:12:26 PM »
It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

I think there's a difference here, though, in that he's moving from a position with the Leafs to take a secondary role with another team. When Nieuwendyk was poached to run the Stars there seemed to be quite a bit less of an issue because there was no denying that being the #1 guy in Dallas is more than he was here.

But in this case? These jobs don't have definitions that are universal and I don't know if it's fair to assume that there's necessarily a clear promotion involved in going from being a director of player-personnel to being an AGM somewhere else. To get a sense of that you have to know what the management structure is like in both places and what someone's day to day responsibilities are.

Personally, I think it's nuts. The Canadiens are a rival within the division. They're drafting ahead of the Leafs in what's a very important draft for both teams. I'd personally hope that, if nothing else, this changes the contracts that the club gives to executives.

Personally, I think letting an executive out of his contract to seek advancement elsewhere makes as much sense as letting a player do the same.
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Offline Significantly Insignificant

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2012, 06:16:56 PM »
It is quite common for employment contracts to have an out clause if there is the opportunity for advancement.  Dudley has been the GM of four NHL teams.  He is underemployed in his current role with the Leafs.  With as much experience as Dudley has with contracts, it would be amazing if he had not included a provision in his own contract that gives him the freedom to accept a better job.

I think there's a difference here, though, in that he's moving from a position with the Leafs to take a secondary role with another team. When Nieuwendyk was poached to run the Stars there seemed to be quite a bit less of an issue because there was no denying that being the #1 guy in Dallas is more than he was here.

But in this case? These jobs don't have definitions that are universal and I don't know if it's fair to assume that there's necessarily a clear promotion involved in going from being a director of player-personnel to being an AGM somewhere else. To get a sense of that you have to know what the management structure is like in both places and what someone's day to day responsibilities are.

Personally, I think it's nuts. The Canadiens are a rival within the division. They're drafting ahead of the Leafs in what's a very important draft for both teams. I'd personally hope that, if nothing else, this changes the contracts that the club gives to executives.

Personally, I think letting an executive out of his contract to seek advancement elsewhere makes as much sense as letting a player do the same.

Are their contracts timed based, or are they more of a general "You have this position until you quit or are fired" type of contract?
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Offline Etiam Vultus

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2012, 07:05:27 PM »
1)  I believe that all contracts for front office staff and coaches are time based for a specific number of years.

2)  Contracts for head coaches and general managers generally do not include an out clause.

3)  It is different for assistant coaches and other front office staff, and for very good reasons.  Their contracts may or may not include an out clause, but there is also a general practice to at least consider a request to allow an employee to leave before his contract is finished.  Think about it.  Would you want to hire someone who has no potential for a promotion, or would you rather hire someone who has the ability and the desire to move up?  If it is the latter, then you have to be prepared to accept the fact that some will move on.

4)  There are limits to how and when an employee under contract can move to a new team.  It would be rare to permit a move during the season.  (Obviously this does not apply to a coach who has been fired and is being paid, but not working.)  It is also uncommon to facilitate lateral moves.  Typically, an employee will be permitted to move if it is a promotion and happens during the off-season.

5)  It is common for the team who is looking to hire to ask permission of the employee's current employer.  In many cases, it is mandatory.  For example, the Leafs had to receive permission from the Ducks to talk to Carlyle because he was still under contract.  The Ducks could have refused.  In another situation, e.g. the team seeking permission was fighting for a playoff spot with the Ducks, the permission could have been refused.

6)  It is not certain whether the Habs had to ask the Leafs for permission to talk to Dudley.  Based on Dudley's past experience and the fact that it is believed he had an out clause, it is doubtful that the Leafs could have refused a request that occurred during the off-season and within the terms of Dudley's contract.

7)  Dudley is NOT required to  give 30 days notice that he is quitting his job and then start looking for a new one.  He could start looking for another job after the season was over and leave 30 days later, but he is not obligated to leave if he does not find a better opportunity.

8)  Brian Burke has his faults, but it is clear that he has a very high moral code.  He has stated on numerous occasions that he expects to lose some of his front office staff to more senior positions with other teams.  He has also made it clear that he does not see that as a problem, but an advantage.  In his words, it gives the Leafs a strong friend in another organization to facilitate trades, share information, etc.  Burke's criticism of Kevin Lowe for tendering an offer sheet to Dustin Penner was not because the offer was made, but because it was made without any attempt to contact the Ducks and try to work out a trade beforehand.  Note that Burke reacquired a Leafs draft choice so that he would have been in a position to offer sheet Kessel if necessary, but his first choice was to work out a trade with Boston.  Burke's self-imposed trade embargo around Christmas may or may not be good for the team, but it is because of a genuine concern about the welfare of players and their families.  I do not believe that Burke would prevent any of his employees from advancing, but he would expect the new team to be reasonable, just as he would be.  Given the history and profile of Toronto and Montreal, I expect that something will be worked out that is fair to everyone.


Offline moon111

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2012, 08:48:40 PM »
There are rumblings that Dudley's contract allows him to accept a new job after the Leafs season is over by giving 30 days notice.  It is impossible to tell how accurate this is, but assuming it is true then there is nothing Burke can do to stop Dudley from starting with Montreal prior to the draft.

It is interesting to note that Chicago is in a similar position, with Bergevin leaving a key position to join the Habs.  It is expected that the Black Hawks, Leafs and others will push for changes so that a key manager is not allowed to join a new team between the end of the season and the start of free agency on July 1. 

Even if that does come to pass, it would not affect the situation with Dudley.  If he leaves to join Montreal before the amateur draft, I suggest that we just grin and bear it and give him a nice parting gift; perhaps something like a 245 pound right hand defenseman with a cap hit of $4.5 million for the next two years. ;) ;) ;)

Don't the Leafs have to give permission for the HAbs to offer Dudley a contract though?  As far as I've heard this past weekend, Dudley said he hasn't been contacted by the Habs.  Just don't give the Habs permission until a few days before the draft. Then Dudley has his 30 days notice which passes draft day.

As a courtesy, the Habs should give the Leafs notice that they plan to contact Dudley.  I don't think that they need the Leafs actual permission, since that would negate Dudley's right to take a new job.

I took Dudley's comments that he had not been contacted yet by the Habs with a large truckload of salt.  It reminded me of the free agents who sign a new contracts one minute after the free agency period begins and we are expected to believe that their new teams were not in touch with them and their agents until just then.

FWIW, the Leafs and Habs cannot switch draft positions since there is a league rule that there is no compensation when an executive moves from one team to another.
Hence why Komisarek is getting thrown in the deal.
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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2012, 09:16:10 PM »
Think about it.  Would you want to hire someone who has no potential for a promotion, or would you rather hire someone who has the ability and the desire to move up?  If it is the latter, then you have to be prepared to accept the fact that some will move on.

I don't think this makes a lot of sense. Yes, as an organization, you should want to hire people who have the capability and the drive to advance. But that doesn't mean you should serve as a training ground for other organizations. Much like executives, the Leafs should want to sign players who will eventually be more than what they currently are but that doesn't mean that, once those players advance, the Leafs should just let them walk away from contracts they signed if they think a better opportunity presents itself elsewhere.

This isn't a situation where someone has put in a bunch of years and stands no chance of advancement. Dudley has worked for the team for less than a year. If he leaves now, he essentially wouldn't have been with the team for even a single draft.

How does that make sense for the leafs to hire people with a specialty in player development and scouting and then essentially not benefit from that. More to the point, how is it even remotely possible that the work that Dudley has done this year while in the employ of the Leafs with regards to amateur players wouldn't influence what he did in Montreal? If Dudley goes to Montreal before the draft and offers them his opinion on amateur players then even if he doesn't tip the Leafs hands the end result for the Leafs will be that they paid for the Montreal Canadiens to do some scouting.

Non-compete clauses exist in other businesses. They haven't ruined companies that have them because they're still offering highly sought after jobs and compensating their employees well. An argument could be made that if someone puts in many years with an organization and adds to their success over those years that you should let them out of a deal to pursue other opportunities elsewhere but this isn't that.

Players, executives, it doesn't matter. If someone signs a contract they have a responsibility to see it through, not jump ship the second a better opportunity presents itself elsewhere.

Enforcing those contracts should be an industry standard or, at the very least, a team like the Maple Leafs should be able to protect themselves from being directly and negatively impacted by their employees jumping ship to a rival just before the most crucial point in a front office's season.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2012, 09:17:45 PM by Nikł »
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Re: TSN: Rick Dudley expected to join Montreal as Assistant GM
« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2012, 09:16:10 PM »