Author Topic: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"  (Read 9679 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2019, 01:44:10 PM »
Ah yes. Is this really an analytics conversation though? It reads to me more as power structures.

To clarify, I don’t really know enough about this and I’m hoping you or someone else can teach me more.

Well, I think it's absolutely an analytics conversation in the way that most of them are in that while there's a broad consensus about the idea that it's good to collect information there's a lot of disagreement about how that information gets applied and to what extent it should prevail over, say, the nuances that come with "watching the game". Because I think if you're having a fair discussion about these things I think what's meant by "watch the game" isn't that analytics guys literally aren't watching the game but rather that there's a difference between watching the game and accumulating raw data on outcomes of things like shot percentage and, say, scouting the game and trying to decipher the whys of how certain things are successful and others aren't.

I think you and I agree with the basic thing Rose said in his New Yorker interview about analytics being a tool in the box as opposed to the whole toolbox and that the most successful teams will take a multi-pronged approach that relies on both old and new school methods of evaluation but I do think there's something to be said about the way that the new school people have handled this has been, shall we say, not always great with respect to appreciating the other side of it or in accepting the idea that it's not a question of absolutes(a point that is made a lot on twitter by Bill James, who is not exactly an old school tobacco juice and nerdhating type).

I don't know if you've seen this discussion on the Rose thing but it's worth a watch:

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #225 on: June 14, 2019, 01:44:10 PM »

Online herman

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #226 on: June 14, 2019, 02:25:03 PM »
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/raptors-masai-ujiri-accused-assault-nba-final-1.5175577


Online herman

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #227 on: June 14, 2019, 02:27:38 PM »
I don't know if you've seen this discussion on the Rose thing but it's worth a watch:


Thanks, Nik. I'mma go through this a little later as I definitely haven't been following.
All I read was this: https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/jalen-rose-has-a-problem-with-basketball-analytics

Quote
It seems to me that a lot of ex-players don’t like the increasing focus on analytics and advanced stats in the conversation around sports. Do you think that is fair as a generalization, and if so, why do you think that is?

Oh, wow, you are going to start off with a don’t-get-fired topic that I am going to pull you behind the curtain on, if you really want to know the impetus behind the backlash.

I’m all ears.

No. 1, there are many people that feel like it has a cultural overtone to it that basically suggests that, even though I may not have played and you did, I am smarter than you, and I know some things that you don’t know, and the numbers support me, not you. Two, you notice that, when it is a powerful job in sports—whether it is an owner, whether it is a president, whether it is a general manager, whether it is a coach—usually in football and basketball, sports that are primarily dominated by black Americans, it’s also an opportunity to funnel jobs to people by saying that, “I am smarter than you because the numbers back up what I say, and I am more read. I study more. I am able to take these numbers and manipulate my point.” It’s almost like when you hear that a player doesn’t have experience at doing X job. People that normally get the jobs you are describing don’t, either. They didn’t play at most levels, but that suffices as their “experience” and validates their opportunity for power.

Just to be clear, when you say “cultural overtones,” you mean racial overtones?

Correct. And one other point I want to make with that: it is laughable to me when playing experience gets equated to any other type of experience, including coaching. When you play—for example, somebody like me, who has been playing my entire life—for some strange reason that experience gets diminished when it’s time to talk about powerful positions in sports—like, He doesn’t have experience. There is no bigger experience than being in the foxhole, in the huddles, and out on the floor—being a part of the game plan and being game-planned against. But also all the people you learn from: your teammates, the coaches, how to navigate with the media, how to navigate with the fans. Instead of it being, He doesn’t have experience, it really should be, He has more experience than almost anybody walking the earth.

When you say “manipulate,” do you think that analytics people are doing something dishonest for their own ends, or do you just think they don’t have the experience? “Manipulate” is a loaded word.

I am saying it becomes an entry point, a validation.

And let me say this: I give myself a forehead slap like the Three Stooges when I hear players and ex-players say that somebody can’t cover the game that didn’t actually play the game. That is also extremely incorrect. Just because you played the game, that doesn’t mean that you are best at analyzing the game, or coaching the game, or working in the front office. It’s the totality of the individual that allows special people to be able to juggle and be successful at both.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #228 on: June 14, 2019, 03:13:15 PM »
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/raptors-masai-ujiri-accused-assault-nba-final-1.5175577


From the head of AP Canada:

Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #229 on: June 14, 2019, 03:30:24 PM »
So allow me a brief moment of partisanship here if I may...

I think it's great that a lot of people got behind this Raptors team. I know that Canadian basketball fans from wherever are probably inclined to follow the Raptors above other teams. I appreciate that every sports team will have a regional fanbase. I like the fact that people have hopped on the bandwagon. I encourage more to do so. There's room for everyone and the growth of the game is good.

But...can we maybe knock it off with the "Canada's Team" stuff? I appreciate love for the Raps from wherever but this is a Toronto team. It's a team that's only possible in one part of the country, that reflects the sensibilities of one particular city and with a fanbase that is an embodiment of what this city is about in a way that not everywhere else is.

Often times, and I think most Leafs fans will agree here, there seems to be some pushback against Toronto's place within the country. We all hear the "Centre of the Universe" jokes and we all know the economic facts about what Toronto puts into federal and provincial budgets vs. what we get back. The city gets ragged on, the people do and so it can edge on grating when something within the city gets claimed by the country so long as it achieves a certain level of success.

I don't want this to be exclusionary. Everyone is welcome to the party. But it's Toronto's party. The only entry fee for the rest of the country is admitting that you love us.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Online Deebo

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #230 on: June 14, 2019, 04:21:41 PM »
So allow me a brief moment of partisanship here if I may...

I think it's great that a lot of people got behind this Raptors team. I know that Canadian basketball fans from wherever are probably inclined to follow the Raptors above other teams. I appreciate that every sports team will have a regional fanbase. I like the fact that people have hopped on the bandwagon. I encourage more to do so. There's room for everyone and the growth of the game is good.

But...can we maybe knock it off with the "Canada's Team" stuff? I appreciate love for the Raps from wherever but this is a Toronto team. It's a team that's only possible in one part of the country, that reflects the sensibilities of one particular city and with a fanbase that is an embodiment of what this city is about in a way that not everywhere else is.

Often times, and I think most Leafs fans will agree here, there seems to be some pushback against Toronto's place within the country. We all hear the "Centre of the Universe" jokes and we all know the economic facts about what Toronto puts into federal and provincial budgets vs. what we get back. The city gets ragged on, the people do and so it can edge on grating when something within the city gets claimed by the country so long as it achieves a certain level of success.

I don't want this to be exclusionary. Everyone is welcome to the party. But it's Toronto's party. The only entry fee for the rest of the country is admitting that you love us.

Exactly how I feel. It's Toronto's team, the rest of Canada is welcome to support it, but it's Toronto's team.

Offline Guilt Trip

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #231 on: June 14, 2019, 05:31:12 PM »
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/raptors-masai-ujiri-accused-assault-nba-final-1.5175577

You can also see in many vids when hugging Kawhi, Lowry, Nurse, he had his credentials in his hand still so he didn't drop them.

Offline L K

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #232 on: June 15, 2019, 11:47:29 AM »
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/basketball/nba/raptors-masai-ujiri-accused-assault-nba-final-1.5175577

You can also see in many vids when hugging Kawhi, Lowry, Nurse, he had his credentials in his hand still so he didn't drop them.

The most damning one is directly from the aftermath of the racist piece of garbage cop.   Of course the accountability will be none from this police department.  Making false accusations.  Accusing someone of assaulting an officer and then feigning their moral superiority for not charging him and arresting him on the spot.  America, you have a huge f-ing problem with your police.

Lowry see Masai being harassed and runs over to pull him to the court.  He has his badge in his right hand.


Offline L K

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #233 on: June 15, 2019, 11:52:13 AM »
So allow me a brief moment of partisanship here if I may...

I think it's great that a lot of people got behind this Raptors team. I know that Canadian basketball fans from wherever are probably inclined to follow the Raptors above other teams. I appreciate that every sports team will have a regional fanbase. I like the fact that people have hopped on the bandwagon. I encourage more to do so. There's room for everyone and the growth of the game is good.

But...can we maybe knock it off with the "Canada's Team" stuff? I appreciate love for the Raps from wherever but this is a Toronto team. It's a team that's only possible in one part of the country, that reflects the sensibilities of one particular city and with a fanbase that is an embodiment of what this city is about in a way that not everywhere else is.

Often times, and I think most Leafs fans will agree here, there seems to be some pushback against Toronto's place within the country. We all hear the "Centre of the Universe" jokes and we all know the economic facts about what Toronto puts into federal and provincial budgets vs. what we get back. The city gets ragged on, the people do and so it can edge on grating when something within the city gets claimed by the country so long as it achieves a certain level of success.

I don't want this to be exclusionary. Everyone is welcome to the party. But it's Toronto's party. The only entry fee for the rest of the country is admitting that you love us.

It's absolutely fair.   The country didn't really get behind them until the 2nd/3rd round really too so it's not like this was Canada's team from Day 1.  I'm glad for it, but you are right that this is Toronto's team that plays in Canada, not just Canada's team.  They don't rotate city to city and the vibe is Toronto not Canada.  The best possible thing that could happen out of this is the basketball support grows and some day Vancouver can get their team back to rivalry with Seattle again.  When that happens those BC people won't be Raptors fans, they will be not-Grizzlies fans.

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #234 on: June 15, 2019, 12:30:54 PM »
You fellas are seriously underestimating how much support both the Raptors and Blue Jays have across Western Canada. I know many people who see more games of each play live every year than almost everyone posting here. Yes the level of support increased as this year's playoffs went but so did support in Toronto.

Offline Peter D.

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #235 on: June 15, 2019, 03:12:07 PM »
It's Toronto's team being embraced and celebrated by the rest of Canada.  I don't think it's that big a deal that they are considered "Canada's team" considering they are the sole franchise this country has to offer.  Everyone knows they are Toronto-based, and it's not like they are called the Canada Raptors.  I think it's great that the rest of the country has an affinity for the Raptors and Jays in comparison to the loathing the Leafs get.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #236 on: June 15, 2019, 03:47:04 PM »
It's absolutely fair.   The country didn't really get behind them until the 2nd/3rd round really too so it's not like this was Canada's team from Day 1.  I'm glad for it, but you are right that this is Toronto's team that plays in Canada, not just Canada's team.  They don't rotate city to city and the vibe is Toronto not Canada.

Yeah, I think that's as much it as anything. I appreciate that for $$$ reasons they want to be able to sell to the rest of Canada but there's a pretty stark truth that Raptors national broadcasts have tended not to pull huge numbers when compared to just about any other property Sportsnet or TSN have.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline hockeyfan1

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #237 on: June 15, 2019, 05:35:24 PM »
The “WetheNorth” slogan was a marketing gem.  People from across the country, Canadians from the world over, were all in cheering for “Canada’s team”.  After all, the Raptors are the only Canadian-based basketball franchise in existence now, but, should there ever be more in the future (Vancouver, etc.), it’s doubtful that one can still say “WetheNorth” and still be cheering for one team to represent the country in a professional sports league.

In a way, the Raptors being the lone wolf of the NBA in Canada, achieved what might sound as near-impossible — getting the attention of even non-basketball followers and buying into the all in-for-one mentality.

That’s where the “WetheNorth” slogan shines, unlike anything else we’ve seen so far.  (Only when the Leafs were winning the Stanley Cup in the ‘60’s, before expansion, was a Toronto team cheered for and followed by the rest of the country as the de facto “Canada’s team, too.”
« Last Edit: June 15, 2019, 05:37:31 PM by hockeyfan1 »

Offline Hobbes

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #238 on: June 16, 2019, 04:41:00 PM »
...Only when the Leafs were winning the Stanley Cup in the ‘60’s, before expansion, was a Toronto team cheered for and followed by the rest of the country as the de facto “Canada’s team, too.”
Les Habitants de Montréal might disagree with you there.  ;)
It's not denial...I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #239 on: June 16, 2019, 08:20:25 PM »
...Only when the Leafs were winning the Stanley Cup in the ‘60’s, before expansion, was a Toronto team cheered for and followed by the rest of the country as the de facto “Canada’s team, too.”
Les Habitants de Montréal might disagree with you there.  ;)

Well, also the last two Blue Jays playoff runs were absolutely treated that way.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Re: 2018-2019 Toronto Raptors Thread: "In Kawhi (& Danny) We Trust!"
« Reply #239 on: June 16, 2019, 08:20:25 PM »