Author Topic: Tank Nation UNITE!!!  (Read 157362 times)

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Online bustaheims

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2015, 09:43:14 AM »
I never root for a loss in any given game, can't do it.  But in the larger context, I hope for a great measure of tank.

It's time to gut this sucker and let the entrails sink to the bottom of the pond.

I can't really, either, until last few games of the season when they're legitimately jockeying for a better draft position. Right now, it's more that I'm less enthusiastic about wins because I see them as being fruitless endeavours.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #30 on: January 21, 2015, 09:43:14 AM »

Offline Boston Leaf

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #31 on: January 21, 2015, 09:45:40 AM »
I am all talk. I am always saying yes lets tank. lose very game etc.. then they drop the puck and I jsut cant do it. I still get excited whenever they score.. so i guess in reality count me out of tank nation.. Plus our hsitory of drafting is pretty poor. I think the scouting staff needs a huge overhaul

Offline Heroic Shrimp

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2015, 09:48:48 AM »
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.

So who would be the 2015 player equivalent to Raycroft that we could trade Nylander for?
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Offline Potvin29

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2015, 09:49:21 AM »
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.

So who would be the 2015 player equivalent to Raycroft that we could trade Nylander for?

Clarkson?

Offline Heroic Shrimp

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2015, 09:51:02 AM »
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

It started them down a really bad path, yeah. The trade itself was awful, but, it also lead to the Toskala and Giguere trades. It was really just a mess.

Yeah, you can just imagine so many other moves not having to happen if that deal isn't made.

So who would be the 2015 player equivalent to Raycroft that we could trade Nylander for?

Clarkson?

 :'(

Do you have to be so right?
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Online Deebo

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2015, 09:55:45 AM »
I never root for a loss in any given game, can't do it.  But in the larger context, I hope for a great measure of tank.

It's time to gut this sucker and let the entrails sink to the bottom of the pond.

I can't really, either, until last few games of the season when they're legitimately jockeying for a better draft position. Right now, it's more that I'm less enthusiastic about wins because I see them as being fruitless endeavours.

Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.

Offline pmrules

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2015, 09:58:20 AM »
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

Ahh...love that trade. 

Hypothetical question...

Assume it was Pogge instead of Rask in that trade.

Is there anyone other than me who thinks there is an outside shot (i.e. not a guarantee) that it is Pogge with the Stanley Cup and the Vezina, and Rask outside the NHL?

Inference being that it was the Toronto team/system that ruined Pogge and the Boston team/system that helped to make Rask what he is today (Chara/Bergeron in their primes could make a lot of goalies).   

If I recall correctly that at the time of the trade the talent levels of Rask/Pogge were considered to be at a similar level (i don't know this to be true since i don't follow junior/euro hockey so I have to assume based on what i remember hearing at the time).

Offline Potvin29

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2015, 10:00:42 AM »
I can't disagree with the assessment the article presents. Except for the Nolan trade. I will always maintain that it was the right trade at the time.

I could be wrong bit it think since the trade Nolan ended up playing more games than any of the pieces that were involved in that deal. I'll have to look that up though.

I'm going to back the Leetch trade too.  The Leafs would have been better getting Chris Pronger rather than another offensive defenseman but they gave up a 6th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, an 8th round draft prospect who was a non-NHLer, a 1st round pick (24th overall) and a 2nd round draft pick for what was supposed to be a year and a half of Leetch.  They got burned by a lockout that the Leafs never wanted.  That was still a very good team.  Borderline Cup contender, but a contender nonetheless.

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

Ahh...love that trade. 

Hypothetical question...

Assume it was Pogge instead of Rask in that trade.

Is there anyone other than me who thinks there is an outside shot (i.e. not a guarantee) that it is Pogge with the Stanley Cup and the Vezina, and Rask outside the NHL?

Inference being that it was the Toronto team/system that ruined Pogge and the Boston team/system that helped to make Rask what he is today (Chara/Bergeron in their primes could make a lot of goalies).   

If I recall correctly that at the time of the trade the talent levels of Rask/Pogge were considered to be at a similar level (i don't know this to be true since i don't follow junior/euro hockey so I have to assume based on what i remember hearing at the time).

Short answer: nope.

Rask was a legitimate 1st round pick and considered the best goalie outside of the NHL for years until he broke into the league.

Pogge didn't really have much other than hype from being on the WJHC team.  There was really nowhere near the same excitement about him from scouts.

I'm sure Boston's style has helped Rask's overall numbers, but he'd be great regardless.

Online bustaheims

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2015, 10:02:25 AM »
Hypothetical question...

Assume it was Pogge instead of Rask in that trade.

Is there anyone other than me who thinks there is an outside shot (i.e. not a guarantee) that it is Pogge with the Stanley Cup and the Vezina, and Rask outside the NHL?

Inference being that it was the Toronto team/system that ruined Pogge and the Boston team/system that helped to make Rask what he is today (Chara/Bergeron in their primes could make a lot of goalies).   

If I recall correctly that at the time of the trade the talent levels of Rask/Pogge were considered to be at a similar level (i don't know this to be true since i don't follow junior/euro hockey so I have to assume based on what i remember hearing at the time).

No. I think Pogge's stock was artificially inflated by his performance at the WJHC, and, while his junior numbers looked pretty good, he was playing behind a very stingy defensive team. I don't think any of the professionals ever considered Pogge to be on par with Rask. Maybe some of the talking heads said something to that effect, but, that's about it.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Online CarltonTheBear

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2015, 10:04:43 AM »
Even at the time of the trade, there were tons of people (myself included) that saw Pogge as nothing more than maybe a back-up in the NHL. Rask was generally considered a top 2 or 3 goalie prospect at the time.

Online bustaheims

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2015, 10:06:40 AM »
Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.

Yeah, though, they're already 9 points out, so, even if they manage to keep pace with the teams ahead of them, that's still a big enough gap to put the team into sell mode. Really, though, the decision to sell or not should be made much earlier - possibly as early as this weekend (teams usually have front office meetings during the All Star break for that purpose). The groundwork for deadline day deal is often laid weeks before the trades go down, so, unless they Leafs have a significant winning streak out of the break, they're going to be in a position where they should be selling.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Offline Peter D.

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #41 on: January 21, 2015, 10:10:12 AM »
I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

I know this doesn't pertain to the premise of the article, but along the same line while discussing goalies, the trade that still bothers me to no end to this day is the one that brought Wendel Clark back from the Islanders which saw the Leafs' 1st go the other way (as well as Jonsson).  The pick of course that ended up being Roberto Luongo.  I don't know if the Leafs would have drafted him, but that pick right there would have set the Leafs up for the next two decades.

And the Rask for Raycroft trade still bothers me to this day.  It's the 1A to the Clark trade for the all-time Leaf trades I despise.  God what was Ferguson thinking.  Pogge was a sack of crap who had Trevor Kidd written all over him. 

Online Joe S.

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #42 on: January 21, 2015, 10:10:29 AM »

I maintain if one trade was the absolute worst for the team long term, it was Rask for Raycroft.  If I absolutely had to pick one.

That is correct. In terms of setting the team back for years, off the top of my head, the worst trades I've witnessed in my career as a leafs fan are:

1. a 1st round pick for Tom Kurvers
2. Rask for Raycroft
3. Steen and Colaiacovo for jackass

Online Deebo

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #43 on: January 21, 2015, 10:13:40 AM »
Losing as many of the next 16 games is important, we don't want management to think there is any chance of a playoff spot going into the trade deadline.

Yeah, though, they're already 9 points out, so, even if they manage to keep pace with the teams ahead of them, that's still a big enough gap to put the team into sell mode. Really, though, the decision to sell or not should be made much earlier - possibly as early as this weekend (teams usually have front office meetings during the All Star break for that purpose). The groundwork for deadline day deal is often laid weeks before the trades go down, so, unless they Leafs have a significant winning streak out of the break, they're going to be in a position where they should be selling.

Yeah, should be... but then again we've heard reports of them opening negotiations with Santorelli and Franson. I really hope they don't give Santorelli a contract like Raymond got with Calgary. Trade him, go back to the UFA scrap heap next year to find another player like him or let someone from the farm take the position.

Offline Peter D.

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2015, 10:16:47 AM »
It was a simple trade, but the Perrault for a 2nd trade bugged me.  It was a move that continued to signal a quick fix. 

Was just reminded it turned out to be Roman Josi.  :-X

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Re: Tank Nation UNITE!!!
« Reply #44 on: January 21, 2015, 10:16:47 AM »