Author Topic: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590  (Read 14508 times)

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Offline L K

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #210 on: March 03, 2014, 09:41:01 PM »
It's hard to argue with that.  The only thing I can counter with is a lack of accountability?  I mean, if the team is continually not working hard, eventually that just becomes an acceptable part of the team culture.  If Phaneuf isn't going to stand up in the dressing room and do something about it, then the coach should.

Short of being a convenient go-to buzzword, I'm not sure what "accountability" ultimately means. Yelling at them? I'm sure Carlyle has done that ad nauseum. Benching them? Who? I don't know what you do really.

I don't really know either.  But something has to happen.  This team is going to get destroyed in the playoffs at this point if they are lucky enough to hold on to a playoff spot.

Offline Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #211 on: March 03, 2014, 09:41:19 PM »
Well, at least Reimer was pretty good.

It's a shame that this lousy effort by the team might mask that, really, Reimer should be getting more of a look down the stretch.

He ought to get some starts on this next stretch.  I'd give one of all remaining B2Bs plus another start on the 5-game trip.  More if Bernier falters and he picks it up.

Offline Nik

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #212 on: March 03, 2014, 09:46:57 PM »
Completely agree with the bolded part. But, team defence comes mostly from the players who can play that way, not what the coach shows them. Team Canada could have had a monkey coaching at the Olympics and they still would have won the gold, based almost entirely on their defensive play. That was the players, not the coaching.

Torino doesn't really help that argument. It's a combination.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #213 on: March 03, 2014, 09:51:35 PM »
Completely agree with the bolded part. But, team defence comes mostly from the players who can play that way, not what the coach shows them. Team Canada could have had a monkey coaching at the Olympics and they still would have won the gold, based almost entirely on their defensive play. That was the players, not the coaching.

Torino doesn't really help that argument. It's a combination.

That's why I said 'mostly'. But I also think the Torino team was defensively weaker as a unit. I mean, Bryan McCabe made that team.... ;)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 09:53:55 PM by RedLeaf »
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Offline Nik

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #214 on: March 03, 2014, 09:57:16 PM »
That's why I said 'mostly'. But I also think the Torino team was defensively weaker as a unit. I mean, Bryan McCabe made that team.... ;)

Who I'd take defensively over PK Subban. It was a really good defensive unit.

Anyways, I think the point remains that it's a combination and I think it's fair to say that Carlyle is doing some things defensively that aren't helping the team. I absolutely agree that he doesn't have much to work with but he's still a part of the problem.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #215 on: March 03, 2014, 10:01:24 PM »
That's why I said 'mostly'. But I also think the Torino team was defensively weaker as a unit. I mean, Bryan McCabe made that team.... ;)

Who I'd take defensively over PK Subban. It was a really good defensive unit.

Anyways, I think the point remains that it's a combination and I think it's fair to say that Carlyle is doing some things defensively that aren't helping the team. I absolutely agree that he doesn't have much to work with but he's still a part of the problem.

Fair enough. I'm just not buying into the argument that coaching is the achilles heel of this team.
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #216 on: March 03, 2014, 10:01:45 PM »
Completely agree with the bolded part. But, team defence comes mostly from the players who can play that way, not what the coach shows them. Team Canada could have had a monkey coaching at the Olympics and they still would have won the gold, based almost entirely on their defensive play. That was the players, not the coaching.

Edit: show me a team full of good two way players and I'll show you a good coach. That seldom works the other way around.

Yes. The Leafs aren't Team Canada. We all know that. But, at the same time, if you don't believe that coaching had influence on the outcome of the Olympics, then I don't know what to say to you.

A good coach can make a team look much better defensively than the talent on the roster would imply that they would be. While the Leafs may not be brimming with defensive superstars, they are, as a group, talented enough as players to be a reasonable defensive group if they're deployed probably and taught a system that maximizes their strength. Right now, neither of those things are happening.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #217 on: March 03, 2014, 10:06:20 PM »
Completely agree with the bolded part. But, team defence comes mostly from the players who can play that way, not what the coach shows them. Team Canada could have had a monkey coaching at the Olympics and they still would have won the gold, based almost entirely on their defensive play. That was the players, not the coaching.

Edit: show me a team full of good two way players and I'll show you a good coach. That seldom works the other way around.

Yes. The Leafs aren't Team Canada. We all know that. But, at the same time, if you don't believe that coaching had influence on the outcome of the Olympics, then I don't know what to say to you.

A good coach can make a team look much better defensively than the talent on the roster would imply that they would be. While the Leafs may not be brimming with defensive superstars, they are, as a group, talented enough as players to be a reasonable defensive group if they're deployed probably and taught a system that maximizes their strength. Right now, neither of those things are happening.

Unless you're talking about playing a trap game, I don't agree. This team has too many offense-first players. We've been through this, you and me, many times. You know where I stand on this. I'd trade 3-4 offense-first players on this team for two-way guys (add a few defensive D-men), and we get that much closer to the team you think we should be seeing now. That's the only way it happens.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:10:29 PM by RedLeaf »
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Offline bustaheims

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #218 on: March 03, 2014, 10:16:53 PM »
Unless you're talking about playing a trap game, I don't agree. This team has too many offense-first players. We've been through this, you and me, many times. You know where I stand on this. I'd trade 3-4 offense-first players on this team for two-way guys (add a few defensive D-men), and we get that much closer to the team you think we should be seeing now. That's the only way it happens.

All trading offensive players for defensive players is going to do to this team is turn them from a team that gets inconsistent secondary scoring to a team that gets no secondary scoring. Without changing the way they play defence, they're not going to improve defensively. The type of talent on the roster isn't going to matter until that happens.

As for the trap, I'm actually advocating quite the opposite. The Leafs are already playing a very passive defensive system, like the trap is. It's not working for them at all. What I'm saying is they should be playing a much more aggressive defensive system - one that takes away time and space from their opponents and forces them to make mistakes, so they can take advantage of their speed and skill.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:19:46 PM by bustaheims »
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #219 on: March 03, 2014, 10:27:50 PM »
Unless you're talking about playing a trap game, I don't agree. This team has too many offense-first players. We've been through this, you and me, many times. You know where I stand on this. I'd trade 3-4 offense-first players on this team for two-way guys (add a few defensive D-men), and we get that much closer to the team you think we should be seeing now. That's the only way it happens.

All trading offensive players for defensive players is going to do to this team is turn them from a team that gets inconsistent secondary scoring to a team that gets no secondary scoring. Without changing the way they play defence, they're not going to improve defensively. The type of talent on the roster isn't going to matter until that happens.

No. All it will do is help keep the puck in the offensive zone more (and on Kessel and JVRs sticks), keep shots on net and goals-against down, improve the goaltenders stats, and ultimately put more W's up on the board. Oh... and improve the coaches record.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 10:31:24 PM by RedLeaf »
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Offline Nik

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #220 on: March 03, 2014, 10:33:33 PM »

Although with all that said I think it's worth mentioning that the team allowed 33 shots and only 2 goals and we're talking about tonight as a failure of the defence.
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Offline RedLeaf

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #221 on: March 03, 2014, 10:39:16 PM »

Although with all that said I think it's worth mentioning that the team allowed 33 shots and only 2 goals and we're talking about tonight as a failure of the defence.

But...failure of defence is the only thing Busta and I agree on  ;)

It's how to fix it that gets us riled.
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Offline Bonsixx

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #222 on: March 04, 2014, 01:44:14 AM »
This game could've been a two or three goal lead in the first period. They didn't play great, but they weren't bad. That was, I believe, what they refer to as "puck luck."

Still, insanely sloppy play defensively. Turnovers are ridiculous and I'm not sure how they're going to fix it.

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #223 on: March 04, 2014, 02:52:08 AM »
The only good thing that happened tonight was not letting in an empty net goal. So... yep. Pretty stoked about that.

Offline TML fan

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Re: Blue Jackets @ Leafs - Mar. 3rd, 7:00pm - SN, SN 590
« Reply #224 on: March 04, 2014, 02:57:36 AM »
Completely agree with the bolded part. But, team defence comes mostly from the players who can play that way, not what the coach shows them. Team Canada could have had a monkey coaching at the Olympics and they still would have won the gold, based almost entirely on their defensive play. That was the players, not the coaching.

Edit: show me a team full of good two way players and I'll show you a good coach. That seldom works the other way around.

Yes. The Leafs aren't Team Canada. We all know that. But, at the same time, if you don't believe that coaching had influence on the outcome of the Olympics, then I don't know what to say to you.

A good coach can make a team look much better defensively than the talent on the roster would imply that they would be. While the Leafs may not be brimming with defensive superstars, they are, as a group, talented enough as players to be a reasonable defensive group if they're deployed probably and taught a system that maximizes their strength. Right now, neither of those things are happening.

Unless you're talking about playing a trap game, I don't agree. This team has too many offense-first players. We've been through this, you and me, many times. You know where I stand on this. I'd trade 3-4 offense-first players on this team for two-way guys (add a few defensive D-men), and we get that much closer to the team you think we should be seeing now. That's the only way it happens.

If the team has so many offence first players, and plays a defence first system, how is that not the coach's problem? Yeah, you can trade for a bunch of better defensive players, but wouldn't it be simpler to just get a coach who will actually try to maximize the potential of the team he has, instead of force-feeding them bullcrap hockey because he can't adapt his coaching style?