Author Topic: Jays Roster Discussion  (Read 51679 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #780 on: December 05, 2018, 09:16:19 PM »
Did you even follow the team in 2015?  The Tulo trade turned the team around.

Really? What turned the team around was the Shortstop who slashed .239/.318/.380? Not, say, David Price?

Even if that were true it was short term gain for an ugly long term deal.

Jose Reyes is an idiot.  You seem to gravitate toward and admire these idiot types. 

AA is the guy who traded for Jose Reyes.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #780 on: December 05, 2018, 09:16:19 PM »

Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #781 on: December 05, 2018, 09:25:26 PM »
Really? What turned the team around was the Shortstop who slashed .239/.318/.380? Not, say, David Price?

or the bullpen addtions of Osuna, Sanchez and Lowe and eventually Stroman returning to the rotation.

I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #782 on: December 05, 2018, 09:33:52 PM »
Anyways, speaking of Tulowitzki Atkins had some pretty blunt comments regarding Tulowitzki.



Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #783 on: December 05, 2018, 09:40:39 PM »
I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I don't really disagree with this. He took his shot and got the Jays pretty close to the World Series. Good job by him.

The problem I have with it in the larger sense is that I still think the Jays would have been better off post-Halladay if they'd committed to building themselves through prospects and homegrown talent. It's why the "All of the prospects he traded for Price/Tulo/Donaldson ended up sucking anyway" doesn't really work for me. That's sort of an indictment on his ability to identify young talent.

As is though, as IJLH said, what he did necessitated a rebuild. Rogers wanted him to stick around for it but he bailed and left others to deal with his mess. To lionize him for that...I don't get it.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #784 on: December 05, 2018, 09:48:18 PM »
I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I don't really disagree with this. He took his shot and got the Jays pretty close to the World Series. Good job by him.

The problem I have with it in the larger sense is that I still think the Jays would have been better off post-Halladay if they'd committed to building themselves through prospects and homegrown talent. It's why the "All of the prospects he traded for Price/Tulo/Donaldson ended up sucking anyway" doesn't really work for me. That's sort of an indictment on his ability to identify young talent.

As is though, as IJLH said, what he did necessitated a rebuild. Rogers wanted him to stick around for it but he bailed and left others to deal with his mess. To lionize him for that...I don't get it.
It's because, well, didn't AA win MLB executive of the year that year?  When they fired Beeston I thought for sure they would promote AA to team president.

I think there was a real human factor to this whole thing.  I can relate to AA in many ways and I will tell you that from what I have seen from Shapiro, he seems extremely "fake" and not very genuine.  AA probably saw right through this and was not comfortable working with him.  That is my take anyway.  AA was always extremely professional about this and never said why he really left.  I believe him when he says he had his reasons.

That is the whole thing, Nik.  I think you tend to look at things more analytically whereas I tend to gravitate toward the human factor.  The interpersonal side.  Team players.  Team chemistry.  That kind of thing.  Whereas you worry about batting average or in the case of hockey goals and assists and all that.  I don't have a problem with it, it's just I think that in a nutshell is largely why we see things so differently.  You're probably not picking up on the personal details I'm noticing on all these players and such, and I'm not detail oriented enough to care about the stats that you seem to spend hours looking at.

Sorry about the thread derail, I just wanted to say that.  :)

Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #785 on: December 05, 2018, 09:57:09 PM »
You know who has won executive of the year twice?

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #786 on: December 05, 2018, 10:15:42 PM »
You know who has won executive of the year twice?
I still don't like him.  And I am entitled to that opinion.  ;)

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #787 on: December 05, 2018, 10:17:14 PM »
You're probably not picking up on the personal details I'm noticing on all these players and such, and I'm not detail oriented enough to care about the stats that you seem to spend hours looking at.

It's not that I'm somehow unaware of things beyond numbers, I just have different interpretations of these details than you do and I try not to let my biases cloud my perception of facts and objective truth. You seem to like to take hard opinions on things that you or I have no way of knowing. Team chemistry being a perfect example. It's not that I don't think it exists or is a consideration, I'm just not going to yell about it because we're all getting 2nd and 3rd information and there's millions of ways to interpret that information. The sorts of thing you're referring to...psychology or organizational theory or whatever...it's not that I don't think they're real, I just know they were in the Social Sciences building, not the Science building.

(and FWIW, having a working knowledge of stats requires much, much less effort than you think it does. I'm not a math guy, my education was in Social Sciences. I just can use Baseball-Reference and HockeyDb)

In a way, the ticket price thing is a perfect metaphor here. For most of the stadium, they had a fairly modest price increase. 25% or so. But for one area of the stadium, where you apparently had your tickets, it was much larger. You're free to be as unhappy as you like with that price increase but it's worthwhile to note that things would look different from another part of the ballpark.

Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Bender

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #788 on: December 05, 2018, 10:29:11 PM »
I like AA and thought 2015 was absolutley the right time to go for it. He sold high on some mediocre prospects in the Donaldson and Price deals and put together a team that had a real shot to win a championship, but that group was always headed for a steep decline no matter who was in charge.

I don't really disagree with this. He took his shot and got the Jays pretty close to the World Series. Good job by him.

The problem I have with it in the larger sense is that I still think the Jays would have been better off post-Halladay if they'd committed to building themselves through prospects and homegrown talent. It's why the "All of the prospects he traded for Price/Tulo/Donaldson ended up sucking anyway" doesn't really work for me. That's sort of an indictment on his ability to identify young talent.

As is though, as IJLH said, what he did necessitated a rebuild. Rogers wanted him to stick around for it but he bailed and left others to deal with his mess. To lionize him for that...I don't get it.
Just to reiterate what you said here, and to just speak to the point: I don't think anyone thinks the Jays were far off from winning it in '15, and I don't think people can fault him for trying to win it. But I remember thinking at the time that he was really going all in on players that had a short window, and maybe that wasn't the most prudent thing to do. It's not a shocker to me the team wasn't good after a couple of runs in the post season and now that they've got to rebuild all the heat is on Shapiro for having to pick up the pieces rather than AA conveniently leaving, which seemed very odd at the time. If he felt the team had another viable shot at the championship why leave? He knew he played his hand and lost and didn't want to be taking heat for having to rebuild after he dealt a large number of our younger talent.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #789 on: December 05, 2018, 10:55:43 PM »
Just to reiterate what you said here, and to just speak to the point: I don't think anyone thinks the Jays were far off from winning it in '15, and I don't think people can fault him for trying to win it. But I remember thinking at the time that he was really going all in on players that had a short window, and maybe that wasn't the most prudent thing to do. It's not a shocker to me the team wasn't good after a couple of runs in the post season and now that they've got to rebuild all the heat is on Shapiro for having to pick up the pieces rather than AA conveniently leaving, which seemed very odd at the time. If he felt the team had another viable shot at the championship why leave? He knew he played his hand and lost and didn't want to be taking heat for having to rebuild after he dealt a large number of our younger talent.

There are a couple of ways of looking at AA leaving. If we wanted to be charitable I think it might be fair to say that AA, who had some professional clout, maybe didn't want to put more years of his career into a rebuild with a high degree of difficulty given the natural problems within the division. Maybe he also really didn't want to share any authority. Whatever. I don't begrudge the guy doing what he thought was best for himself.

But the end of it is that he was offered a deal to stay, he turned it down. He landed in a good job for him. The Braves had already built up their prospect base and AA can turn that into some win now stuff.

The thing about this argument is that it's not a two-sides thing. Did AA do a good job? Eh. Not to my taste but ok. Has Shapiro done a great job? Eh. He's done alright with a mis-step here or there. All the information we have says that.

I really don't think there's anything going on here beyond the team is not winning a lot these days so some fans are upset. No more, no less. So there are attempts to rationalize those feelings and attribute them to personal issues and so on. Venting is fine and everything but it's when those feelings try to adopt the sheen of fact-based arguments that they bug me.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #790 on: December 11, 2018, 03:19:52 PM »
The Jays released Tulowitzki with 38M still owed.

Offline bustaheims

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #791 on: December 11, 2018, 03:32:09 PM »
The Jays released Tulowitzki with 38M still owed.

Over-under on MLB games he gets into over the next two seasons? I'm pegging it at 20, and I'm taking the under.
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Online Frank E

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #792 on: December 11, 2018, 05:09:49 PM »
I don't know much about the CBA of the MLB, but what is the advantage of releasing Tulo if they have to pay him anyways?

Offline Captain Canuck

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #793 on: December 11, 2018, 05:38:24 PM »
As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now.
I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then.  ::)
In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr.
Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Online Frank E

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #794 on: December 11, 2018, 05:44:47 PM »
As usual its all about what have you done for me lately. Glad Tulo helped the Jays make a couple playoff runs, but this guy is just a broken down shell of his former self now.
I honestly don't care about the $38 M, more happy he is gone and that a spot has opened up for Gurriel Jr./Bichette. I also didn't care much for his latest comments saying he would remain a starting shortstop, despite the fact he can't stay healthy...go do it somewhere else then.  ::)
In some ways its like how Donaldson was moved to make way for Vlad Jr.
Really looking forward to seeing the left side of the infield next season!

To answer your question Frank, its all about breaking up that infield log jam. The Jays just don't have the roster space, had 39 of the 40 spots filled prior to this move. Diaz got dealt, Solarte was non-tendered and now Tulo has been released. The Jays needed to flush some of the glut to make way for the young guns. Probably only a matter of time before Travis is gone, likely when Bichette is ready.

Thank you, so if I understand, similar to NHL in terms of roster spot limitations.  Basically just paying a guy full contract value to disappear and make way for new kids.

Is Martin far behind then?

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #794 on: December 11, 2018, 05:44:47 PM »