Author Topic: Jays Roster Discussion  (Read 47976 times)

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Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #765 on: December 03, 2018, 09:17:00 PM »
The whole thing with Donaldson was shortsighted.  They were offered the eventual rookie of the year pitcher for him.  They should have taken it.  Anyone in their right mind would have.

This is not true. They weren't offered the eventual rookie of the year. The player they were offered for him, Jack Flaherty, eventually finished 5th in rookie of the year voting by virtue of getting a couple of fifth place votes. .

Should they have taken the deal? Obviously with hindsight, yes. Is it a catastrophe? No. Was it unreasonable to bet on him to have a good walk year? No.

Then there is Bautista, a franchise icon, who was unceremoniously shown the door when they could have had him for under a million last season.  He should have been made a coach IMO.  Some kind of role within the organization.

He was done as a player, his year proved that, but he still wanted to play. Part of rebuilding is giving at-bats to younger players and Hernandez and Grichuk were here for that very reason. If Bautista wants to move into coaching, that's one thing but big league coaching jobs shouldn't be legacy roles. He should earn it with coaching at lower levels.

The whole Edwin negotiation was botched completely and really I think he had more value to the club than people realize.  Super great clubhouse guy.  My family got to meet him as seasons ticket holders.  Super nice guy with a great sense of humor.

I'm sure Edwin is a lovely fellow. That said, I don't think the deal he wanted to sign made sense and I don't think trading him during the 2016 season made sense either. They got a comp pick for him, they used it smartly on Pearson who is now a very good prospect. I don't think that counts as completely botching the situation.

In my own way I respect Shapiro as a penny pinching scrooge but I don't think he suits the Jays market or what they need.  When they got him I thought he might do great with a higher payroll than he had in Cleveland but so far all I have seen him do is slash and burn and make some boneheaded moves also.

And build one of the better farm systems in baseball. I will take a carpet bagger who will build the team and not sacrifice things for short term gains.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #765 on: December 03, 2018, 09:17:00 PM »

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #766 on: December 04, 2018, 07:52:10 AM »
Well if Shapiro brings us a winner I will eat my hat *and* my shorts.  I feel it is far more likely he is going to run the franchise into the ground and Rogers Centre will be a ghost town.  You'll see.

Offline Dappleganger

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #767 on: December 04, 2018, 10:52:59 AM »
Just wanted to say this, It was Encarnacion's camp that botched the negotiations, not the Jays. Seems the Jays were pretty spot on.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #768 on: December 04, 2018, 11:11:42 AM »
Just wanted to say this, It was Encarnacion's camp that botched the negotiations, not the Jays. Seems the Jays were pretty spot on.

I just wish people were more realistic about what actually happened there. Edwin got paid and good for him but he got 60 million over three years and has put up seasons of 2.9 and 1.9 BWAR. Morales has been terrible, sure, but the difference is between being a 76 and a 79 win team one year and a 73 and 75 win team the next.

Having Edwin around would have been nice as he'll probably hit his 400th HR next year and that would have been a nice moment for the fans but by letting him walk the Jays got the pick and could develop Pearson rather than hoping that he maybe has a good enough year this year to get a good return.

It was a bloodless move, sure, but probably the right one for a rebuilding team.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #769 on: December 05, 2018, 06:26:29 PM »
Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team.  Not even close.  The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess.  I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

Online Deebo

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #770 on: December 05, 2018, 07:06:32 PM »
Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team.  Not even close.  The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess.  I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

There haven't been 5 players rated as high as him across the league in 20 years.

They also have Bichette and Jansen.

How much do you actually know about the farm system?
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:10:08 PM by Deebo »

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #771 on: December 05, 2018, 07:41:59 PM »

First it was that they hadn't committed enough to the rebuild, now it's that they don't have enough good players on the big league club? It can't really be both. 

Like I said before, the rebuilding isn't over. They picked Groshans last year. They have the 11th pick coming up. They'll probably have at least another year of drafting fairly high. Guerrero is just the biggest prospect in a very good system that's going to get better.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
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Offline IJustLurkHere

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #772 on: December 05, 2018, 08:10:12 PM »
Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.


Smoak put up an .808 OPS with little protection while being a finalist for a gold glove, so I don’t think his being #1 Jay is the damning indictment you are making out.

The team won 73 games in 2018, they’re obviously more than a single player away.

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #773 on: December 05, 2018, 08:34:15 PM »

First it was that they hadn't committed enough to the rebuild, now it's that they don't have enough good players on the big league club? It can't really be both. 

Like I said before, the rebuilding isn't over. They picked Groshans last year. They have the 11th pick coming up. They'll probably have at least another year of drafting fairly high. Guerrero is just the biggest prospect in a very good system that's going to get better.
Smoak is just another example.  He should have been traded.  Why keep him?  Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways.  And Smoak has value.  I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

And yes, that is the problem.  They tanked halfway.  Not even halfway.  A mini tank.  They basically had thoughts of competing and then panicked when that didn't work out.

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #774 on: December 05, 2018, 08:36:00 PM »
Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.

Vladimir Guerrero Jr. is not going to be the saviour for this team.  Not even close.  The team would need at least 5 players like him to get them even remotely close to where they need to be.

The Blue Jays are currently a complete mess.  I'm not even going to watch the games for the foreseeable future.

There haven't been 5 players rated as high as him across the league in 20 years.

They also have Bichette and Jansen.

How much do you actually know about the farm system?
Enough to know that even if a bunch of those guys pan out they still won't be where they need to be.

The Yankees with their endless cash just had a farm system like that and good players on their roster also and they still didn't win it all.

The MLB as currently constructed is pay to win.  Rogers and Shapiro are too cheap to ever win in this market IMO.  They say they will raise payroll but it will never be enough to win it all IMO.

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #775 on: December 05, 2018, 08:36:47 PM »
Justin Smoak with his .250 batting average was just unanimously chosen as the Blue Jays best player of 2018.  That kind of says it all.  Pretty damning of the current team leadership IMO.  The second best player was Grichuk.


Smoak put up an .808 OPS with little protection while being a finalist for a gold glove, so I don’t think his being #1 Jay is the damning indictment you are making out.

The team won 73 games in 2018, they’re obviously more than a single player away.
I'd be interested to see a team with a worse best player on their roster.  I'd venture to guess there aren't too many.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #776 on: December 05, 2018, 08:43:35 PM »
Smoak is just another example.  He should have been traded.  Why keep him?  Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways.  And Smoak has value.  I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

More value than when? Now? Or next year's deadline? How could you possibly know that?

If Guerrero is ready to be a full time 1B when he gets called up, as opposed to DHing, they can trade Smoak then. Until then, they need warm bodies. Smoak isn't a huge difference maker and the return on him isn't going to be huge but it's not a big deal either way.

That said it is at least a little funny that you're lamenting the lack of good young players on the Blue Jays right now while not recognizing that it's precisely that lack of good young players which is why a rebuild was needed. If AA had done a decent job of drafting and developing players, there'd be better players on the Blue Jays than Smoak. Because he didn't, the Jays have to grow their own. You may not like it but that takes time.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #777 on: December 05, 2018, 08:52:42 PM »
Smoak is just another example.  He should have been traded.  Why keep him?  Vladdy Jr. is projected to be more of a 1B anyways.  And Smoak has value.  I would say he had more value last season at the deadline.

More value than when? Now? Or next year's deadline? How could you possibly know that?

If Guerrero is ready to be a full time 1B when he gets called up, as opposed to DHing, they can trade Smoak then. Until then, they need warm bodies. Smoak isn't a huge difference maker and the return on him isn't going to be huge but it's not a big deal either way.

That said it is at least a little funny that you're lamenting the lack of good young players on the Blue Jays right now while not recognizing that it's precisely that lack of good young players which is why a rebuild was needed. If AA had done a decent job of drafting and developing players, there'd be better players on the Blue Jays than Smoak. Because he didn't, the Jays have to grow their own. You may not like it but that takes time.
I would have traded Smoak at the first decent offer.  I'm sure he would have been of value to someone out there at some point.

I thought AA did fine with prospects.  Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing?  Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Syndergaard was another good one.  Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Stroman, Sanchez, plus others.  The list goes on.  AA built up enough prospect capital to almost win it all in this market.  And pretty much all the pieces he traded away didn't pan out.

AA was a wily and creative thinker.  I quite like him.  It will be interesting to follow Atlanta now.

Offline Nik the Trik

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #778 on: December 05, 2018, 09:04:29 PM »
I thought AA did fine with prospects.  Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing?  Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Then why don't the Jays have a lot of good young players? Why did so many of his draft picks not make a mark in the Major Leagues?

Here's the 2010 draft. AA taking Deck McGuire in the first round over Chris Sale and Christian Yelich:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Major_League_Baseball_draft

And on and on. From 2010 until he left the team, Stroman is the only the first round pick that made even the slightest impact on the team, including the multiple picks they blew on guys they couldn't even sign. Frankly, his record sucks.

Syndergaard was another good one.  Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Well, he also got nothing of significance back in the Halladay trade, got nothing worthwhile in the big Marlins trade, gave away Mike Napoli for nothing and saddled the Jays with the Tulowitzki contract but yeah, just the one boneheaded move.
Give a man the reputation of an early riser and he can sleep 'til noon
-Mark Twain

Offline sickbeast

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #779 on: December 05, 2018, 09:09:19 PM »
I thought AA did fine with prospects.  Wasn't Vladdy Jr. his doing?  Didn't he send Edwin down there to recruit him?

Then why don't the Jays have a lot of good young players? Why did so many of his draft picks not make a mark in the Major Leagues?

Here's the 2010 draft. AA taking Deck McGuire in the first round over Chris Sale and Christian Yelich:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Major_League_Baseball_draft

And on and on. From 2010 until he left the team, Stroman is the only the first round pick that made even the slightest impact on the team, including the multiple picks they blew on guys they couldn't even sign. Frankly, his record sucks.

Syndergaard was another good one.  Trading him for Dickey was AA's one true bonehead move.

Well, he also got nothing of significance back in the Halladay trade, got nothing worthwhile in the big Marlins trade, gave away Mike Napoli for nothing and saddled the Jays with the Tulowitzki contract but yeah, just the one boneheaded move.
Did you even follow the team in 2015?  The Tulo trade turned the team around.  Jose Reyes is an idiot.  You seem to gravitate toward and admire these idiot types.  I can't stand them.

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Re: Jays Roster Discussion
« Reply #779 on: December 05, 2018, 09:09:19 PM »