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2024 Offseason Thread: Changes

Started by herman, May 05, 2024, 02:40:35 PM

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cabber24

Quote from: herman on June 13, 2024, 12:48:50 PMAgain, the content of what's being said through the media is all just posturing for bargaining position on both sides. However, how its being said points towards a divorce happening one way or another.
I think so as well...

I am willing to see what's on the other side good or bad.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

cw

Quote from: Bender on June 13, 2024, 12:44:10 PM
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: herman on June 12, 2024, 03:46:49 PMhttps://twitter.com/nhl_watcher/status/1801024559849537584
- directly quoting the text he gets from Darren Ferris

Previously, after the playoffs
Toronto Sun May 06, 2024 link
Quote"That would be a goal," Marner said when he was asked if he wants to stay in Toronto longterm. "I've expressed my love for this place, this city. I grew up here. We'll start thinking about that now and trying to figure something out."

Hockey News June 4, 2024 Report: Preference From Mitch Marner's Camp to Start Season with Maple Leafs
Quote"As I wrote a few weeks ago, the Marner camp, led by agent Darren Ferris isn't putting together a list of teams for a potential trade. The focus for Marner, who has a full no-move clause, is on honoring the remaining year of his contract and seeing where things go from there," LeBrun wrote.

"That also means I don't think there's an appetite to talk extension come July 1. The preference from the Marner camp is to start the season and see how things go. Perhaps there are talks on an extension eventually, but I don't believe there's a strong desire to get into them this summer."

Now, we have this from Dreger quoting Marner's agent:
Quote"Marner has another year remaining on his contract and he intends to play it out ..."

I wonder how many times Marner has to say it before the media catches on ... (they need their subscriptions, ratings & clicks ..)

The clock is ticking. We're getting closer to the big dominos game on July 1 where after the first dominos fall, a bunch of plan B's, C's & D's get immediately launched, etc as they scramble.
A GM's time is increasingly precious now. He has to have all his ducks lined up.
Are they going to spend a bunch of their critical time on a complex, big $ trade where the player with a NMC hasn't even blessed any destination or provided a willingness to do so and his agent wants him to test the UFA market?
I really doubt it.

Whether Marner accepts being traded or not any time soon is up to Marner and he repeatedly has said he's not interested any time soon. If they don't want him around long term, his agent can take care of that July 1, 2025. It would save him some work - one less offer to review. The Leafs can try to find a 28 yr old, 95 pt replacement on the UFA market ... which I don't recall seeing very often

I think we all understand your position by now.

I was commenting on the recent quote by Dreger.
The Marner camp keeps repeating themselves.
The media and many fans aren't listening.

cw

Quote from: herman on June 13, 2024, 12:48:50 PMAgain, the content of what's being said through the media is all just posturing for bargaining position on both sides. However, how its being said points towards a divorce happening one way or another.

It certainly does if it carries on as it has been.
It risks damaging their playoff chances next season.
It risks losing him for little or nothing.
The upside of doing this seems like a real longshot to pull off - to get a credible return.

I doubt what Marner's side has said seems like "posturing" to them.
There's not much to posture about from Marner camp's perspective.
They already have a contract that they're abiding by. They've told us that multiple times.
They've said they do not want to discuss it further this summer.
The die was cast many years ago: Mitch will become a UFA with a NMC in July 2025.
If the Leafs value his services, they can show Mitch how much before July 2025.


In the interim, the Leafs can explain to Mitch why they expect his new team should have to give up a bunch of assets that would otherwise have helped him after he arrives at his new destination in a trade as opposed to going there for no asset cost as a UFA in July 2025. I think the Leafs need more than posturing there ... but I sincerely doubt it will fool Marner's agent. The Leafs are effectively asking the destination team to pay for a hunk their mismanagement screw up.

herman

Can't remember when I said it, because hot diggity, I post a lot, but after losing to Florida last season (or was it this season?), I noted that we have the template for how to play in the playoffs (let's be fasstholes), and we need to build it up in the regular season as a matter of course to make it instinctive. We proceeded to not do that through some combination of Keefe stubbornness in the early goings and several core players kind of not being able to execute.

Here's where my hope lies:
  • Treliving believes in fast and heavy structure designed for the playoffs from the get go; defense is about team checking and pressure on the puck
  • the new coach believes in fast, north-south, structured, off-the-rush AND heavy cycle playoff style from the get go
  • we have most of the personnel up front required for such a game
  • the defensemen required (that we don't have) for such a playstyle are the ones the GM and coach both favour: long, aggressive, puck movers
  • playing in the above style naturally insulates the goaltender if pucks in the DZ are aggressively smothered and chipped out for breakaways the other way, vs holding the puck forever in the OZ until an oopsie at the blueline leads to an odd-man rush down your throat.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

OldTimeHockey

Quote from: herman on June 14, 2024, 10:22:45 AMCan't remember when I said it, because hot diggity, I post a lot, but after losing to Florida last season (or was it this season?), I noted that we have the template for how to play in the playoffs (let's be fasstholes), and we need to build it up in the regular season as a matter of course to make it instinctive. We proceeded to not do that through some combination of Keefe stubbornness in the early goings and several core players kind of not being able to execute.

Here's where my hope lies:
  • Treliving believes in fast and heavy structure designed for the playoffs from the get go; defense is about team checking and pressure on the puck
  • the new coach believes in fast, north-south, structured, off-the-rush AND heavy cycle playoff style from the get go
  • we have most of the personnel up front required for such a game
  • the defensemen required (that we don't have) for such a playstyle are the ones the GM and coach both favour: long, aggressive, puck movers
  • playing in the above style naturally insulates the goaltender if pucks in the DZ are aggressively smothered and chipped out for breakaways the other way, vs holding the puck forever in the OZ until an oopsie at the blueline leads to an odd-man rush down your throat.
This is what is needed.
WE can only hope that the current group can play that style.

Bender

#545
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 01:06:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 13, 2024, 12:44:10 PM
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: herman on June 12, 2024, 03:46:49 PMhttps://twitter.com/nhl_watcher/status/1801024559849537584
- directly quoting the text he gets from Darren Ferris

Previously, after the playoffs
Toronto Sun May 06, 2024 link
Quote"That would be a goal," Marner said when he was asked if he wants to stay in Toronto longterm. "I've expressed my love for this place, this city. I grew up here. We'll start thinking about that now and trying to figure something out."

Hockey News June 4, 2024 Report: Preference From Mitch Marner's Camp to Start Season with Maple Leafs
Quote"As I wrote a few weeks ago, the Marner camp, led by agent Darren Ferris isn't putting together a list of teams for a potential trade. The focus for Marner, who has a full no-move clause, is on honoring the remaining year of his contract and seeing where things go from there," LeBrun wrote.

"That also means I don't think there's an appetite to talk extension come July 1. The preference from the Marner camp is to start the season and see how things go. Perhaps there are talks on an extension eventually, but I don't believe there's a strong desire to get into them this summer."

Now, we have this from Dreger quoting Marner's agent:
Quote"Marner has another year remaining on his contract and he intends to play it out ..."

I wonder how many times Marner has to say it before the media catches on ... (they need their subscriptions, ratings & clicks ..)

The clock is ticking. We're getting closer to the big dominos game on July 1 where after the first dominos fall, a bunch of plan B's, C's & D's get immediately launched, etc as they scramble.
A GM's time is increasingly precious now. He has to have all his ducks lined up.
Are they going to spend a bunch of their critical time on a complex, big $ trade where the player with a NMC hasn't even blessed any destination or provided a willingness to do so and his agent wants him to test the UFA market?
I really doubt it.

Whether Marner accepts being traded or not any time soon is up to Marner and he repeatedly has said he's not interested any time soon. If they don't want him around long term, his agent can take care of that July 1, 2025. It would save him some work - one less offer to review. The Leafs can try to find a 28 yr old, 95 pt replacement on the UFA market ... which I don't recall seeing very often

I think we all understand your position by now.

I was commenting on the recent quote by Dreger.
The Marner camp keeps repeating themselves.
The media and many fans aren't listening.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the media and fans think and they have a right to think however they like. I don't really care what the camp and Marner's agent has said to the media, but if Marner and his camp think that's a problem then he really shouldn't be here.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

cw

Quote from: Bender on June 14, 2024, 11:41:06 AM
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 01:06:23 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 13, 2024, 12:44:10 PM
Quote from: cw on June 13, 2024, 10:21:41 AM
Quote from: herman on June 12, 2024, 03:46:49 PMhttps://twitter.com/nhl_watcher/status/1801024559849537584
- directly quoting the text he gets from Darren Ferris

Previously, after the playoffs
Toronto Sun May 06, 2024 link
Quote"That would be a goal," Marner said when he was asked if he wants to stay in Toronto longterm. "I've expressed my love for this place, this city. I grew up here. We'll start thinking about that now and trying to figure something out."

Hockey News June 4, 2024 Report: Preference From Mitch Marner's Camp to Start Season with Maple Leafs
Quote"As I wrote a few weeks ago, the Marner camp, led by agent Darren Ferris isn't putting together a list of teams for a potential trade. The focus for Marner, who has a full no-move clause, is on honoring the remaining year of his contract and seeing where things go from there," LeBrun wrote.

"That also means I don't think there's an appetite to talk extension come July 1. The preference from the Marner camp is to start the season and see how things go. Perhaps there are talks on an extension eventually, but I don't believe there's a strong desire to get into them this summer."

Now, we have this from Dreger quoting Marner's agent:
Quote"Marner has another year remaining on his contract and he intends to play it out ..."

I wonder how many times Marner has to say it before the media catches on ... (they need their subscriptions, ratings & clicks ..)

The clock is ticking. We're getting closer to the big dominos game on July 1 where after the first dominos fall, a bunch of plan B's, C's & D's get immediately launched, etc as they scramble.
A GM's time is increasingly precious now. He has to have all his ducks lined up.
Are they going to spend a bunch of their critical time on a complex, big $ trade where the player with a NMC hasn't even blessed any destination or provided a willingness to do so and his agent wants him to test the UFA market?
I really doubt it.

Whether Marner accepts being traded or not any time soon is up to Marner and he repeatedly has said he's not interested any time soon. If they don't want him around long term, his agent can take care of that July 1, 2025. It would save him some work - one less offer to review. The Leafs can try to find a 28 yr old, 95 pt replacement on the UFA market ... which I don't recall seeing very often

I think we all understand your position by now.

I was commenting on the recent quote by Dreger.
The Marner camp keeps repeating themselves.
The media and many fans aren't listening.

At the end of the day it really doesn't matter what the media and fans think and they have a right to think however they like. I don't really care what the camp and Marner's agent has said to the media, but if Marner and his camp think that's a problem then he really shouldn't be here.

That is not the problem.

Here's Treliving a year ago in a similar situation with Matthews and Nylander:
https://www.sportsnet.ca/nhl/video/the-sooner-the-better-maple-leafs-treliving-on-resigning-matthews-and-nylander/?show_id=13373
You get the same vibe for how Treliving has spoken about re-signing Marner?
I sure don't.
I doubt Marner does either.

When the media stuff broke, the Marner camp did what it could to tamp it down.
Did Treliving & the Leafs?
No, they really didn't.
"Doing whatever was best for the club and looking at all our options" (paraphrased) did not default with the same resolve to re-sign Marner as there was for re-signing Matthews & Nylander.
That sends a message.

He's the GM. That's his prerogative. But ..

That message has been received loud and clear by the Marner & his agent.
Not entertaining a discussion during the summer is a change in his position from his year end PC.
Effectively, their answer seems to be "maybe we'll consider an offer from you next July during the UFA bidding. In the interim, we're definitely staying where we are until the season starts. After that point, with his cap hit, good luck trying to swing a deal that doesn't compromise your 2025 playoff aspirations if you make it too ugly for him to play out his contract in Toronto dishonoring his contract."

Is that the best asset management approach?
I have my doubts.
It is probably not going to end well from a Leafs fan perspective.

Joe

Quote from: cw on June 14, 2024, 02:37:08 PMIs that the best asset management approach?
I have my doubts.
It is probably not going to end well from a Leafs fan perspective.

Maybe Treliving can help another team to a cup with a Marner trade. Worked so well for him last time.

Andy

Quote from: Joe on June 14, 2024, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: cw on June 14, 2024, 02:37:08 PMIs that the best asset management approach?
I have my doubts.
It is probably not going to end well from a Leafs fan perspective.

Maybe Treliving can help another team to a cup with a Marner trade. Worked so well for him last time.

You know, there are more than a few things one can point out if they want to criticize Treliving's GM acumen but the trading of an impending FA who was refusing to re-sign with his team and had a preferred, singular trade destination and likening that to the current Marner situation is a bit of a stretch.

Joe

Quote from: Andy on June 14, 2024, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Joe on June 14, 2024, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: cw on June 14, 2024, 02:37:08 PMIs that the best asset management approach?
I have my doubts.
It is probably not going to end well from a Leafs fan perspective.

Maybe Treliving can help another team to a cup with a Marner trade. Worked so well for him last time.

You know, there are more than a few things one can point out if they want to criticize Treliving's GM acumen but the trading of an impending FA who was refusing to re-sign with his team and had a preferred, singular trade destination and likening that to the current Marner situation is a bit of a stretch.

Absolutely. I can admit that he made something out of being forced into a corner. But he also f'd up that signing because from what I could tell from some older articles Tkachuk was willing to sign a deal a year earlier and Treliving played hardball (or something to that effect, I'd have to dig into it again).

But the real unforced error was that crazy contract he gave huberdeau.

Andy

Quote from: Joe on June 14, 2024, 05:18:06 PM
Quote from: Andy on June 14, 2024, 05:10:31 PM
Quote from: Joe on June 14, 2024, 03:29:04 PM
Quote from: cw on June 14, 2024, 02:37:08 PMIs that the best asset management approach?
I have my doubts.
It is probably not going to end well from a Leafs fan perspective.

Maybe Treliving can help another team to a cup with a Marner trade. Worked so well for him last time.

You know, there are more than a few things one can point out if they want to criticize Treliving's GM acumen but the trading of an impending FA who was refusing to re-sign with his team and had a preferred, singular trade destination and likening that to the current Marner situation is a bit of a stretch.

Absolutely. I can admit that he made something out of being forced into a corner. But he also f'd up that signing because from what I could tell from some older articles Tkachuk was willing to sign a deal a year earlier and Treliving played hardball (or something to that effect, I'd have to dig into it again).

But the real unforced error was that crazy contract he gave huberdeau.

OK, I was unaware about this failed re-signing attempt. And I agree regarding Huberdeau. I still think it's pretty funny that Calgary actually finished 1 point ahead of Florida last year though, just going to show what a crap shoot it all is. 

herman

#551
https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/nhl-matthew-tkachuk-wanted-to-sign-long-term-deal-with-flames-in-2019-160851344.html

He wanted a long term deal coming out of his ELC, but Calgary had a tight cap and could only do a bridge amount. So term went down to 3 years and he cut bait after that. Arbitration was filed to stretch out the timeline for them to work out the sign and trade. 
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Joe

Thanks for digging that up Herman.

Bullfrog

Quote from: herman on June 13, 2024, 12:48:50 PMAgain, the content of what's being said through the media is all just posturing for bargaining position on both sides. However, how it's being said points towards a divorce happening one way or another.

Can't you concede that what's being said is possibly true and that it's not just posturing?

herman

#554
Quote from: Bullfrog on June 14, 2024, 11:58:20 PM
Quote from: herman on June 13, 2024, 12:48:50 PMAgain, the content of what's being said through the media is all just posturing for bargaining position on both sides. However, how it's being said points towards a divorce happening one way or another.

Can't you concede that what's being said is possibly true and that it's not just posturing?

I believe Marner would prefer to stay. I also believe he believes he won't get what he and his camp think he's worth, and he is open to pursuing it elsewhere, hence the loveless "Marner will fulfil his contractual obligation" position.

Everything ever said to the media in this industry is for the purpose of posturing. That's how negotiations work when there is public interest.

In the meantime, the Leafs front office just told their insiders to can it because it's not helping their position.

Friedman, on the 32 Thoughts podcast, has declared a moratorium on the topic of Marner
Quote"To end the news segment, I am going on a Mitch Marner moratorium. You cannot say anything about this topic without somebody going berserk," Friedman told co-host Jeff Marek.

"This is why this is the hardest topic to discuss in the NHL. This is why it is so complicated to the future of this and the outcome of this is so complicated because you can't say a thing without somebody getting mad. Even when you're trying to not say anything remotely controversial, people are getting mad."

The Leafs are using Chris Johnston to tell the rest of the league who is interested in Marner they have to step up their offers if they want anything to done.

Quote"The Leafs are not leaning on Mitch Marner right now. They have not decided 100 percent they have to trade him and or that they're going to make life uncomfortable and they're getting the list of names. None of that's what's going on," Johnston said on his podcast on Friday.

"I think there's some frustration just about all the public discourse about it. And look, that's the nature of the beast when you're that player. And when the possibilities are on the table that we're talking about," Johnston said. "But at this point in time, I don't think the Leafs have a deal for them. And I don't think they've gone to them and asked them for a list or anything like that. I think they have to, it does not make any sense for the Leafs to go to war with this player, to make this any more public than it already is."

Transcriptions from:
https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/latest-news/i-am-going-on-a-mitch-marner-moratorium-does-the-discourse-on-the-maple-leafs-star-forward-need-a-break

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/latest-news/report-maple-leafs-have-not-decided-100-percent-that-they-have-to-trade-mitch-marner

And if you want to know what the Marner camp is thinking, just watch for Darren Dreger.
#27 #TeamFasstholes