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2024 Offseason Thread: Changes

Started by herman, May 05, 2024, 02:40:35 PM

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Peter D. and 10 Guests are viewing this topic.

lamajama

Quote from: Bullfrog on May 30, 2024, 06:54:47 AM
Quote from: L K on May 29, 2024, 12:48:12 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2024, 10:19:17 AM
Quote from: cabber24 on May 29, 2024, 10:11:10 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 29, 2024, 08:28:12 AMWait... the CRA is arguing that they're called signing bonuses but they actually aren't signing bonuses?
It's salary paid up front, not a bonus. I don't get the argument. $77M over 7 years with a cap hit of $11M per year regardless of when he gets the money is still all taxable salary. If the NHL allowed bonuses outside the SALARY cap he would have a case.

So it basically is a misnomer. I think this a pretty open and shut case considering he would only get the bonuses pro-rata if he "breached the Contract, voluntarily retired, withheld his services (including a refusal to report, practice, or play), or left the Toronto Maple Leafs." I would imagine a true signing bonus would be cash you get in its entirety should you choose to sign, regardless of future consequences.

The only thing that makes them a little different is the signing bonuses have clauses where they still get given out in the event of a lockout whereas a regular salary isn't.  So there is definitely grey area here.

Agreed that there's some grey area and there's room for argument each way.
However, a signing bonus needs to be a "bonus" I would think. I'm starting a new job in a month and am getting a true signing bonus. In my case, the bonus is irrespective of my salary. My salary is clearly separate.

In JT's case, it's easily arguable that his appropriate salary is far greater than the reported salary. So it's clearly just paying him in advance.

On the other hand, how is a bonus defined? I'm sure it's clear in the excise tax act, but I'm too lazy to look it up. Part of the bonus might not be the value, but the timing.

I'm confident the CRA will prevail, but maybe they cut a deal recognizing it's potentially grey and that JT is entitled to a sizable signing bonus. It'll likely come down to an argument of how much of his total remuneration is salary vs bonus. No way CRA will accept 75% bonus / 25% salary. This case will be precedent setting.

This could be devastating for Canadian teams....hopefully the political parties know that hockey fans will slice and dice them if they don't "fix" this....
I didn't say it was your fault, I said I was blaming you.

herman

#27 #TeamFasstholes

herman

https://twitter.com/PPPLeafs/status/1795077700022865955
https://twitter.com/PPPLeafs/status/1796527979587137675

Bert and Ernie Domi: keep or toss?

I think the Front Office is leaning towards the Carlton suggestion:
UFA D rebuild, cheapo/internal growth Fs, probably medium UFA G.

Marner gets hardballed with a number the Leafs are good with (a generous 11.5x8 max), and if he doesn't like that he can make one last list for the Leafs.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

herman

#393
32 Thoughts June 3, 2024
Transcription errors are my own. I tried to trim out the waffling and filler as best I could.

Timestamp: 1:06
QuoteEF: Everybody is trying to be really careful here, but one of the things people have told me is not to be surprised if this plays out over next season, Marner and Toronto. Now there's a lot of time between here and then, and things can always change, but this is such a delicate conversation between player and team because everyone is determined to look like a winner here.

The Leafs are determined to either make a good trade, or, with the cap room that's created by that trade, do something big that they know they can't afford to have a swing and miss with this one. And also, the player is determined -- and more importantly the people around the player -- are determined to do this that make themselves look good, and they're not going to agree to anything that they think puts them in a bad light. So this is a really complicated thing going in.

I want to throw a couple other points out there to you:
#1 I think that there is some real concern about how the Toronto fans will react to Marner if he starts the year unsigned. And you can't avoid that. And I'm the kind of person who's like, if you want to bet on yourself, bet on yourself. I've bet on myself before, other people have bet on themselves before, if that's what Marner wants to do, I think he has all the right in the world to do it. But he has to understand that some of the fanbase is not going to react very well that, and you have to play through that. Are you comfortable with that? Can you play through that? I do believe that's one of the things that's been discussed.

I think with the Maple Leafs, the other issue that they are dealing with here, and I think there are people in the organization that feel very strongly about this, is that they traded Nazem Kadri a couple of years ago when they were mad at him. Kadri got suspended twice in a row, there are people who felt very strongly at the time that they had to make that trade, but Nazem Kadri went somewhere else, sorted himself out, was a critical member of a Stanley Cup champion, and is a player Toronto very much missed after he left.

And I think there are people in the organization who are looking at this and believe, could this be Kadri 2.0? where Marner goes somewhere else, the spotlight is less intense, he learns how to balance everything, he goes out and becomes a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in another city. Which I do believe could happen. To me that is a very legitimate thing, that Marner could go somewhere quieter and really thrive. I think he's a great player and can become an even better player without the spotlight. I do think there are people in the organization who are very scared of the possibility of that happening, and that's part of the background to all this.

If the contract demands on both sides are crazy, it's going to lead to an eventual divorce anyway. But I don't think there's a certain w- I know there's people who are 100% certain he's getting traded... On Sunday June 2nd, I don't know that I'm so certain of that. I think one of the biggest challenges here are going to be sort of like the feelings of everybody involved. I just think this is going to take a lot of diplomacy for a lot of people to do properly.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Bill_Berg

Quote from: herman on June 03, 2024, 10:10:51 AM32 Thoughts June 3, 2024
Transcription errors are my own. I tried to trim out the waffling and filler as best I could.

Timestamp: 1:06
QuoteI think with the Maple Leafs, the other issue that they are dealing with here, and I think there are people in the organization that feel very strongly about this, is that they traded Nazem Kadri a couple of years ago when they were mad at him. Kadri got suspended twice in a row, there are people who felt very strongly at the time that they had to make that trade, but Nazem Kadri went somewhere else, sorted himself out, was a critical member of a Stanley Cup champion, and is a player Toronto very much missed after he left.

And I think there are people in the organization who are looking at this and believe, could this be Kadri 2.0? where Marner goes somewhere else, the spotlight is less intense, he learns how to balance everything, he goes out and becomes a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in another city. Which I do believe could happen. To me that is a very legitimate thing, that Marner could go somewhere quieter and really thrive. I think he's a great player and can become an even better player without the spotlight. I do think there are people in the organization who are very scared of the possibility of that happening, and that's part of the background to all this.


Personally, I don't really care how it shakes out for player after he leaves Toronto. Win here, then it won't mater if Marner wins three cups with someone else.

herman

Quote from: Bill_Berg on June 03, 2024, 10:27:43 AMPersonally, I don't really care how it shakes out for player after he leaves Toronto. Win here, then it won't mater if Marner wins three cups with someone else.

If the Leafs front office people are so worried about their cast-offs winning the Cup, that's a loser's mentality. Fretting over the fantasy of someone else winning means you don't think you are winning anything.

Relish beating those guys who were shafting you (and your end of season bonus for 8 straight years) with their lackadaisical antics.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

princedpw

Quote from: herman on June 03, 2024, 10:10:51 AM32 Thoughts June 3, 2024
Transcription errors are my own. I tried to trim out the waffling and filler as best I could.

Timestamp: 1:06
QuoteEF: Everybody is trying to be really careful here, but one of the things people have told me is not to be surprised if this plays out over next season, Marner and Toronto. Now there's a lot of time between here and then, and things can always change, but this is such a delicate conversation between player and team because everyone is determined to look like a winner here.

The Leafs are determined to either make a good trade, or, with the cap room that's created by that trade, do something big that they know they can't afford to have a swing and miss with this one. And also, the player is determined -- and more importantly the people around the player -- are determined to do this that make themselves look good, and they're not going to agree to anything that they think puts them in a bad light. So this is a really complicated thing going in.

I want to throw a couple other points out there to you:
#1 I think that there is some real concern about how the Toronto fans will react to Marner if he starts the year unsigned. And you can't avoid that. And I'm the kind of person who's like, if you want to bet on yourself, bet on yourself. I've bet on myself before, other people have bet on themselves before, if that's what Marner wants to do, I think he has all the right in the world to do it. But he has to understand that some of the fanbase is not going to react very well that, and you have to play through that. Are you comfortable with that? Can you play through that? I do believe that's one of the things that's been discussed.

I think with the Maple Leafs, the other issue that they are dealing with here, and I think there are people in the organization that feel very strongly about this, is that they traded Nazem Kadri a couple of years ago when they were mad at him. Kadri got suspended twice in a row, there are people who felt very strongly at the time that they had to make that trade, but Nazem Kadri went somewhere else, sorted himself out, was a critical member of a Stanley Cup champion, and is a player Toronto very much missed after he left.

And I think there are people in the organization who are looking at this and believe, could this be Kadri 2.0? where Marner goes somewhere else, the spotlight is less intense, he learns how to balance everything, he goes out and becomes a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in another city. Which I do believe could happen. To me that is a very legitimate thing, that Marner could go somewhere quieter and really thrive. I think he's a great player and can become an even better player without the spotlight. I do think there are people in the organization who are very scared of the possibility of that happening, and that's part of the background to all this.

If the contract demands on both sides are crazy, it's going to lead to an eventual divorce anyway. But I don't think there's a certain w- I know there's people who are 100% certain he's getting traded... On Sunday June 2nd, I don't know that I'm so certain of that. I think one of the biggest challenges here are going to be sort of like the feelings of everybody involved. I just think this is going to take a lot of diplomacy for a lot of people to do properly.

I hate almost everything in this comment.  The organization won't succeed if they're worried about what other people are thinking.  Fans are stupid and short-sighted.  Don't let them dictate your moves.

The only useful objective is to "make a good trade" and if you can't then continue to use your assets in such a way that maximizes team success.

Guilt Trip

Quote from: herman on June 03, 2024, 10:56:38 AMIf the Leafs front office people are so worried about their cast-offs winning the Cup, that's a loser's mentality. Fretting over the fantasy of someone else winning means you don't think you are winning anything.
That's just EF's guess. I highly doubt management feels this way. They want to make a great trade...that's it.

Bender

Quote from: princedpw on June 03, 2024, 11:34:02 AM
Quote from: herman on June 03, 2024, 10:10:51 AM32 Thoughts June 3, 2024
Transcription errors are my own. I tried to trim out the waffling and filler as best I could.

Timestamp: 1:06
QuoteEF: Everybody is trying to be really careful here, but one of the things people have told me is not to be surprised if this plays out over next season, Marner and Toronto. Now there's a lot of time between here and then, and things can always change, but this is such a delicate conversation between player and team because everyone is determined to look like a winner here.

The Leafs are determined to either make a good trade, or, with the cap room that's created by that trade, do something big that they know they can't afford to have a swing and miss with this one. And also, the player is determined -- and more importantly the people around the player -- are determined to do this that make themselves look good, and they're not going to agree to anything that they think puts them in a bad light. So this is a really complicated thing going in.

I want to throw a couple other points out there to you:
#1 I think that there is some real concern about how the Toronto fans will react to Marner if he starts the year unsigned. And you can't avoid that. And I'm the kind of person who's like, if you want to bet on yourself, bet on yourself. I've bet on myself before, other people have bet on themselves before, if that's what Marner wants to do, I think he has all the right in the world to do it. But he has to understand that some of the fanbase is not going to react very well that, and you have to play through that. Are you comfortable with that? Can you play through that? I do believe that's one of the things that's been discussed.

I think with the Maple Leafs, the other issue that they are dealing with here, and I think there are people in the organization that feel very strongly about this, is that they traded Nazem Kadri a couple of years ago when they were mad at him. Kadri got suspended twice in a row, there are people who felt very strongly at the time that they had to make that trade, but Nazem Kadri went somewhere else, sorted himself out, was a critical member of a Stanley Cup champion, and is a player Toronto very much missed after he left.

And I think there are people in the organization who are looking at this and believe, could this be Kadri 2.0? where Marner goes somewhere else, the spotlight is less intense, he learns how to balance everything, he goes out and becomes a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in another city. Which I do believe could happen. To me that is a very legitimate thing, that Marner could go somewhere quieter and really thrive. I think he's a great player and can become an even better player without the spotlight. I do think there are people in the organization who are very scared of the possibility of that happening, and that's part of the background to all this.

If the contract demands on both sides are crazy, it's going to lead to an eventual divorce anyway. But I don't think there's a certain w- I know there's people who are 100% certain he's getting traded... On Sunday June 2nd, I don't know that I'm so certain of that. I think one of the biggest challenges here are going to be sort of like the feelings of everybody involved. I just think this is going to take a lot of diplomacy for a lot of people to do properly.

I hate almost everything in this comment.  The organization won't succeed if they're worried about what other people are thinking.  Fans are stupid and short-sighted.  Don't let them dictate your moves.

The only useful objective is to "make a good trade" and if you can't then continue to use your assets in such a way that maximizes team success.

Seems like all pretty reasonable comments to me. It doesn't say anywhere that the team will do anything dictated by what they think the fanbase thinks (as if we all think the same anyway).
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

princedpw

Quote from: Bender on June 03, 2024, 11:58:07 AM
Quote from: princedpw on June 03, 2024, 11:34:02 AM
Quote from: herman on June 03, 2024, 10:10:51 AM32 Thoughts June 3, 2024
Transcription errors are my own. I tried to trim out the waffling and filler as best I could.

Timestamp: 1:06
QuoteEF: Everybody is trying to be really careful here, but one of the things people have told me is not to be surprised if this plays out over next season, Marner and Toronto. Now there's a lot of time between here and then, and things can always change, but this is such a delicate conversation between player and team because everyone is determined to look like a winner here.

The Leafs are determined to either make a good trade, or, with the cap room that's created by that trade, do something big that they know they can't afford to have a swing and miss with this one. And also, the player is determined -- and more importantly the people around the player -- are determined to do this that make themselves look good, and they're not going to agree to anything that they think puts them in a bad light. So this is a really complicated thing going in.

I want to throw a couple other points out there to you:
#1 I think that there is some real concern about how the Toronto fans will react to Marner if he starts the year unsigned. And you can't avoid that. And I'm the kind of person who's like, if you want to bet on yourself, bet on yourself. I've bet on myself before, other people have bet on themselves before, if that's what Marner wants to do, I think he has all the right in the world to do it. But he has to understand that some of the fanbase is not going to react very well that, and you have to play through that. Are you comfortable with that? Can you play through that? I do believe that's one of the things that's been discussed.

I think with the Maple Leafs, the other issue that they are dealing with here, and I think there are people in the organization that feel very strongly about this, is that they traded Nazem Kadri a couple of years ago when they were mad at him. Kadri got suspended twice in a row, there are people who felt very strongly at the time that they had to make that trade, but Nazem Kadri went somewhere else, sorted himself out, was a critical member of a Stanley Cup champion, and is a player Toronto very much missed after he left.

And I think there are people in the organization who are looking at this and believe, could this be Kadri 2.0? where Marner goes somewhere else, the spotlight is less intense, he learns how to balance everything, he goes out and becomes a key player on a Stanley Cup champion in another city. Which I do believe could happen. To me that is a very legitimate thing, that Marner could go somewhere quieter and really thrive. I think he's a great player and can become an even better player without the spotlight. I do think there are people in the organization who are very scared of the possibility of that happening, and that's part of the background to all this.

If the contract demands on both sides are crazy, it's going to lead to an eventual divorce anyway. But I don't think there's a certain w- I know there's people who are 100% certain he's getting traded... On Sunday June 2nd, I don't know that I'm so certain of that. I think one of the biggest challenges here are going to be sort of like the feelings of everybody involved. I just think this is going to take a lot of diplomacy for a lot of people to do properly.

I hate almost everything in this comment.  The organization won't succeed if they're worried about what other people are thinking.  Fans are stupid and short-sighted.  Don't let them dictate your moves.

The only useful objective is to "make a good trade" and if you can't then continue to use your assets in such a way that maximizes team success.

Seems like all pretty reasonable comments to me. It doesn't say anywhere that the team will do anything dictated by what they think the fanbase thinks (as if we all think the same anyway).

I am referring to remarks like the #1 point: " #1 I think that there is some real concern about how the Toronto fans will react to Marner . . ."

Building a winning team is tough enough - I'm hoping short term fan reactions aren't a major factor.

Bender

QuoteI am referring to remarks like the #1 point: " #1 I think that there is some real concern about how the Toronto fans will react to Marner . . ."

Building a winning team is tough enough - I'm hoping short term fan reactions aren't a major factor.

I get it, but it depends what we're talking about. If there's major apathy toward the team that could hurt the bottom line you probably do have to take that into consideration to some extent. I'm just saying theres a difference between being concerned with the state of the fanbase and allowing them to dictate roster decisions.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

herman

#401
I think the concern about the fanbase reaction isn't so much that they care about what the fanbase thinks as armchair GMs, but that their reaction would have a very tangible and likely deleterious effect on Marner's asset value, be it as a trade chip mid-season or the on-ice performance if we are riding him to UFA.

Really the only way carrying him into the season doesn't play out contentiously is if Marner signs an 8x8 saying he wants to win with Toronto and wants to give the team the best opportunity to do so. And that's not happening.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

princedpw

Bender and Herman make reasonable points.

But, the folks running the team have some power —- unfortunately, I don't see them using at the moment.  Like, how about them rally everybody in the organization to defend Marner?  Reilly, Matthews, Nylander (already did defend him!), Tavares, Domi, Sundin, Gilmour.   Have everybody say: "Marner is a part of a team.  The team wins and loses as a unit. It is not on one guy.  I, Auston Matthews, am going to stick with him to the end of the earth.  Everybody else get on board."  That should have been coming out of every guy's mouth the moment the series was over.  Make it seem like you have to keep him because he is too good.

Just like anybody including Gretzky, can be traded, I just don't believe anyone *has* to be traded.  Manipulate public opinion!  Do that instead of trading him at a disadvantage.  And then, sure, if you get a deal that improves the team, trade him and admit you lied later.

herman

Quote from: princedpw on June 03, 2024, 06:14:48 PMBender and Herman make reasonable points.

But, the folks running the team have some power —- unfortunately, I don't see them using at the moment.  Like, how about them rally everybody in the organization to defend Marner?  Reilly, Matthews, Nylander (already did defend him!), Tavares, Domi, Sundin, Gilmour.   Have everybody say: "Marner is a part of a team.  The team wins and loses as a unit. It is not on one guy.  I, Auston Matthews, am going to stick with him to the end of the earth.  Everybody else get on board."  That should have been coming out of every guy's mouth the moment the series was over.  Make it seem like you have to keep him because he is too good.

Just like anybody including Gretzky, can be traded, I just don't believe anyone *has* to be traded.  Manipulate public opinion!  Do that instead of trading him at a disadvantage.  And then, sure, if you get a deal that improves the team, trade him and admit you lied later.

They defend him to the media on the regular and the talking points being so consistent suggests it's the PR team's behest. So the front office is already doing that. After all the stuff Marner's representatives put the team through.

I'm down with gassing him up publicly so some playoff hungry owner sends us a Fantilli or someone like that.
#27 #TeamFasstholes