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2024 Offseason Thread: Changes

Started by herman, May 05, 2024, 02:40:35 PM

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Arn

Yeah, I'm very much on board keeping Tavares to the end of his career if he so wishes.

As you say it's just a case of utilising him properly as the years progress.

I do think at some point he'll hand the C over to Matthews as well, though.
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

bustaheims

Yeah. As much as freeing up the cap space would be good, unless a team comes along with a strong offer for him, there's not enough benefit to moving him.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

cw

Quote from: Bender on May 14, 2024, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: cw on May 14, 2024, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: herman on May 14, 2024, 07:47:25 PMJT is actually the underperforming player I don't think it makes sense to trade.

I think he tries his heart out.
He hit like crazy.
Best faceoff guy in the league or right up there.

But his ppg falls from .95 in the regular season to .67 in the playoffs
Arguably, he's the weakest link in the core 4 when it comes to scoring in the playoffs.

And he's been tapering off in the regular season - some of that this season was him taking the checking line center role - which he also did in the 1st four games against the Bruins. There is some explanation for it.

In preseason, he logged one of the faster skating times - worked on it over the summer. He also seems to skate a lot as I vaguely recall from some stat I saw a while ago.

A year from now, you'll have a core 3 in their prime and his big contract off the books - maybe in a lesser role for much less dough.

Marner is their leading playoff scorer & playoff powerplay scorer. If they're worried about scoring in the playoffs you usually do not erase the top scorer to solve that problem. You give him some guys to play with that are better at scoring. In 2024, Marner got Tavares for the 1st four games and they were a checking line against Pastrnak - with a lot of d-zone starts. Then, they move him to be with Domi & Bertuzzi - which put two distributors of the puck on one line with a 2nd tier finisher. And people wonder why/how his scoring got compromised? It may not be fully explained by that but that was a hunk of the problem - aside from Bruins checking and goaltending.

I'd patch it up in goal, with dmen and a couple of forwards. If they do a decent job of that, they're close to last year: a top 6 contender or so with a shot to steal it if their goalie gets hot. The following year, when Tavares dough comes off, they can add more and fix what didn't work.

There are no guarantees. But something like that allows them to knock on the door a few times with the core 3.

McCabe-Brodie were seemingly an excellent pair going into the 2022-23 playoffs. The wheels fell off. I saw Brodie tapered off this season. I've never really felt I grasped what the heck happened there. McCabe shows up this season and he has me wondering if he's top 5 - he's not top 4. He obviously turned it around.

Rielly had a great playoff last season. He seemed to be going ok this year. Around the time of his suspension, he seemed to taper off and never recovered. If Rielly played in this year's playoffs like he did last year, the Leafs beat the Bruins. So whatever happened there is troubling. I'd sure want to better understand that as I reconstruct the dmen ...

I don't see Marner resigning let alone with any modicum of cap hit that the fan base is likely to swallow.

I've only been watching about 60 years.
I honestly cannot ever recall management or ownership paying much serious attention to what the fan base thought about how much a player should be paid. Usually, like now, management are too busy looking over their shoulder at ownership dangling a pink slip to worry much about what the fans thought players should be paid. Around the MLSE water cooler, that notion would probably get a few laughs.

I cannot recall a players agent seriously soliciting the fan base's input in contract negotiations either.

The fans are fickle. If Marner scores in game 7 OT, they'll be trying to erect a statue. Pastrnak scores on a play Paul Maurice & another past Leafs assistant coach question was Marner's responsibility and the fans want him tarred and feathered. They're howling that Marner is responsible for the lack of playoff scoring and should be gotten rid of because of it overlooking that he leads the Leafs in playoff scoring and the forwards in playoff +/-, etc since he showed up. Marner understands the 'God-like' worship and 'Demon-like' hate that can change on a play. What coaching and management should be doing is standing up for their asset. If they don't do that, I wouldn't blame Marner for letting his contract expire without a trade. They would be getting exactly what they deserve for their conduct. They're supposed to be a team that stands up for each other.

For the record, I was not a big fan of Marner being drafted because of his size. I was worried about his ability to compete at the NHL level with the bigger bodies, etc.

I looked at some Leafs history. Here's where these Leafs greats ranked in NHL scoring over their first 8 years in the NHL:
Matthews 7th
Mahovlich 8th
Sittler 10th
Marner 10th
Keon 11th
McDonald 13th
Sundin 15th
Gilmour 19th
Vaive 26th
Nylander 28th
Kessel 33rd
Clark 160th (injured some)

When you look at all the guys he's around in offense in today's NHL, his current pay is commensurate with those players - you might bicker about a few hundred grand while ignoring that he PK's and plays two ways.

His playoff ppg, which leads his team over 8 years, is .88 which is 27th in the league (30+ playoff games played) and ties him with Alex Ovechkin and Conn Smythe winner Ryan O'Reilly during those 8 years. Not too shabby in the games that matter most.

I'm still not a gigantic fan of Marner's but it is tough to disrespect what he has done since he showed up. He's clearly one of the better players to ever pull on a Leafs jersey. He deserves to be paid accordingly. The chances of them recovering his full asset value in a trade under these circumstances is not good and would probably compromise Matthews' chances of ever leading a parade in Toronto. You do not get guys like this too often. Management would be wise to straighten out the fans and protect their asset - for their own self preservation if nothing else.

Frank E

I'd have to imagine that any Marner deal would have to come with an extension in order for him to waive, right?


Dappleganger

Quote from: Frank E on May 15, 2024, 09:20:04 AMI'd have to imagine that any Marner deal would have to come with an extension in order for him to waive, right?




I would presume that would be the case. Doesn't have to be, It'd be up to Mitch, but any team trading for Mitch, they're going to want him log-term.



CarltonTheBear

Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 08:23:56 AMHe needs to change his style a bit: recognizing his diminished already-unimpressive footspeed and not trying to dangle through 3 defenders solo. The PP coach has to stop trying to run the entry play through Tavares (again trying to dangle through a set defense). Chip and (letting others) chase suits his impressive hands and strong stick well, especially with his finishing ability in tight. Lots of super skilled guys who have slowed down are still doing well when properly supported with the right mix (Pavelski, Van Riemsdyk, Maroon sort of).

Not quite the same thing but Berube also oversaw Alex Steen transition from a guy averaging top-6 and top PP minutes in 17/18 to more of a 4th line and PP2 role immediately after (including during their Cup run). That happened in Berube's first year as head coach when Steen was 34, Tavares turns 34 before the start of the season.

Tavares is certainly not dropping to L4 this coming season but a change in role definitely looks needed.

herman

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2024, 09:57:28 AM
Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 08:23:56 AMHe needs to change his style a bit: recognizing his diminished already-unimpressive footspeed and not trying to dangle through 3 defenders solo. The PP coach has to stop trying to run the entry play through Tavares (again trying to dangle through a set defense). Chip and (letting others) chase suits his impressive hands and strong stick well, especially with his finishing ability in tight. Lots of super skilled guys who have slowed down are still doing well when properly supported with the right mix (Pavelski, Van Riemsdyk, Maroon sort of).

Not quite the same thing but Berube also oversaw Alex Steen transition from a guy averaging top-6 and top PP minutes in 17/18 to more of a 4th line and PP2 role immediately after (including during their Cup run). That happened in Berube's first year as head coach when Steen was 34, Tavares turns 34 before the start of the season.

Tavares is certainly not dropping to L4 this coming season but a change in role definitely looks needed.


It doesn't take much squinting to see something like this working, even without Marner

Knies-Matthews-Domi
Robertson-Holmberg-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Kampf-x

L2 as written is not ideal, but if Marner is traded for a legit 2C (Elias Pettersson lol), you're cooking just fine. Or the new coach actually follows through with a Nylander 2C experiment, or Minten has a revelation. The middle 6 lines are just different flavours of similar L2 value.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

CarltonTheBear

Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 10:13:20 AMIt doesn't take much squinting to see something like this working, even without Marner

Knies-Matthews-Domi
Robertson-Holmberg-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Kampf-x

L2 as written is not ideal, but if Marner is traded for a legit 2C (Elias Pettersson lol), you're cooking just fine. Or the new coach actually follows through with a Nylander 2C experiment, or Minten has a revelation. The middle 6 lines are just different flavours of similar L2 value.

Yeah I mean if Marner's gone there should be enough cap space to pluck a decent RW or C from the UFA pile to make things look better.

cabber24

Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 10:13:20 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 15, 2024, 09:57:28 AM
Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 08:23:56 AMHe needs to change his style a bit: recognizing his diminished already-unimpressive footspeed and not trying to dangle through 3 defenders solo. The PP coach has to stop trying to run the entry play through Tavares (again trying to dangle through a set defense). Chip and (letting others) chase suits his impressive hands and strong stick well, especially with his finishing ability in tight. Lots of super skilled guys who have slowed down are still doing well when properly supported with the right mix (Pavelski, Van Riemsdyk, Maroon sort of).

Not quite the same thing but Berube also oversaw Alex Steen transition from a guy averaging top-6 and top PP minutes in 17/18 to more of a 4th line and PP2 role immediately after (including during their Cup run). That happened in Berube's first year as head coach when Steen was 34, Tavares turns 34 before the start of the season.

Tavares is certainly not dropping to L4 this coming season but a change in role definitely looks needed.


It doesn't take much squinting to see something like this working, even without Marner

Knies-Matthews-Domi
Robertson-Holmberg-Nylander
McMann-Tavares-Jarnkrok
Dewar-Kampf-x

L2 as written is not ideal, but if Marner is traded for a legit 2C (Elias Pettersson lol), you're cooking just fine. Or the new coach actually follows through with a Nylander 2C experiment, or Minten has a revelation. The middle 6 lines are just different flavours of similar L2 value.
A better goalie tandem and an improved D line as well with the 8 figures reallocated.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

cabber24

#279
Quote from: cw on May 15, 2024, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 14, 2024, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: cw on May 14, 2024, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: herman on May 14, 2024, 07:47:25 PMJT is actually the underperforming player I don't think it makes sense to trade.

I think he tries his heart out.
He hit like crazy.
Best faceoff guy in the league or right up there.

But his ppg falls from .95 in the regular season to .67 in the playoffs
Arguably, he's the weakest link in the core 4 when it comes to scoring in the playoffs.

And he's been tapering off in the regular season - some of that this season was him taking the checking line center role - which he also did in the 1st four games against the Bruins. There is some explanation for it.

In preseason, he logged one of the faster skating times - worked on it over the summer. He also seems to skate a lot as I vaguely recall from some stat I saw a while ago.

A year from now, you'll have a core 3 in their prime and his big contract off the books - maybe in a lesser role for much less dough.

Marner is their leading playoff scorer & playoff powerplay scorer. If they're worried about scoring in the playoffs you usually do not erase the top scorer to solve that problem. You give him some guys to play with that are better at scoring. In 2024, Marner got Tavares for the 1st four games and they were a checking line against Pastrnak - with a lot of d-zone starts. Then, they move him to be with Domi & Bertuzzi - which put two distributors of the puck on one line with a 2nd tier finisher. And people wonder why/how his scoring got compromised? It may not be fully explained by that but that was a hunk of the problem - aside from Bruins checking and goaltending.

I'd patch it up in goal, with dmen and a couple of forwards. If they do a decent job of that, they're close to last year: a top 6 contender or so with a shot to steal it if their goalie gets hot. The following year, when Tavares dough comes off, they can add more and fix what didn't work.

There are no guarantees. But something like that allows them to knock on the door a few times with the core 3.

McCabe-Brodie were seemingly an excellent pair going into the 2022-23 playoffs. The wheels fell off. I saw Brodie tapered off this season. I've never really felt I grasped what the heck happened there. McCabe shows up this season and he has me wondering if he's top 5 - he's not top 4. He obviously turned it around.

Rielly had a great playoff last season. He seemed to be going ok this year. Around the time of his suspension, he seemed to taper off and never recovered. If Rielly played in this year's playoffs like he did last year, the Leafs beat the Bruins. So whatever happened there is troubling. I'd sure want to better understand that as I reconstruct the dmen ...

I don't see Marner resigning let alone with any modicum of cap hit that the fan base is likely to swallow.

I've only been watching about 60 years.
I honestly cannot ever recall management or ownership paying much serious attention to what the fan base thought about how much a player should be paid. Usually, like now, management are too busy looking over their shoulder at ownership dangling a pink slip to worry much about what the fans thought players should be paid. Around the MLSE water cooler, that notion would probably get a few laughs.

I cannot recall a players agent seriously soliciting the fan base's input in contract negotiations either.

The fans are fickle. If Marner scores in game 7 OT, they'll be trying to erect a statue. Pastrnak scores on a play Paul Maurice & another past Leafs assistant coach question was Marner's responsibility and the fans want him tarred and feathered. They're howling that Marner is responsible for the lack of playoff scoring and should be gotten rid of because of it overlooking that he leads the Leafs in playoff scoring and the forwards in playoff +/-, etc since he showed up. Marner understands the 'God-like' worship and 'Demon-like' hate that can change on a play. What coaching and management should be doing is standing up for their asset. If they don't do that, I wouldn't blame Marner for letting his contract expire without a trade. They would be getting exactly what they deserve for their conduct. They're supposed to be a team that stands up for each other.

For the record, I was not a big fan of Marner being drafted because of his size. I was worried about his ability to compete at the NHL level with the bigger bodies, etc.

I looked at some Leafs history. Here's where these Leafs greats ranked in NHL scoring over their first 8 years in the NHL:
Matthews 7th
Mahovlich 8th
Sittler 10th
Marner 10th
Keon 11th
McDonald 13th
Sundin 15th
Gilmour 19th
Vaive 26th
Nylander 28th
Kessel 33rd
Clark 160th (injured some)

When you look at all the guys he's around in offense in today's NHL, his current pay is commensurate with those players - you might bicker about a few hundred grand while ignoring that he PK's and plays two ways.

His playoff ppg, which leads his team over 8 years, is .88 which is 27th in the league (30+ playoff games played) and ties him with Alex Ovechkin and Conn Smythe winner Ryan O'Reilly during those 8 years. Not too shabby in the games that matter most.

I'm still not a gigantic fan of Marner's but it is tough to disrespect what he has done since he showed up. He's clearly one of the better players to ever pull on a Leafs jersey. He deserves to be paid accordingly. The chances of them recovering his full asset value in a trade under these circumstances is not good and would probably compromise Matthews' chances of ever leading a parade in Toronto. You do not get guys like this too often. Management would be wise to straighten out the fans and protect their asset - for their own self preservation if nothing else.
It's less about him, it's more about the reallocation of the salary cap. Tavares will not be paid 8 figures beyond next year so you choose one out of the remaining three 8-figure contracts to go and everyone is choosing Marner. They give their reasoning which is a shit-list of everything bad about him and it comes across as attacking him. The bullying of Marner by some is also done out of frustration and with the intention of pushing him out. I am okay with the bullying approach because management has not addressed the cap allocation issues and making life difficult for Marner may force their hand. If he's resigned, I don't see any of the results changing with this team.

The team's formula doesn't work and a reallocation is necessary.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Zee

Quote from: cabber24 on May 15, 2024, 10:52:05 AM
Quote from: cw on May 15, 2024, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 14, 2024, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: cw on May 14, 2024, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: herman on May 14, 2024, 07:47:25 PMJT is actually the underperforming player I don't think it makes sense to trade.

I think he tries his heart out.
He hit like crazy.
Best faceoff guy in the league or right up there.

But his ppg falls from .95 in the regular season to .67 in the playoffs
Arguably, he's the weakest link in the core 4 when it comes to scoring in the playoffs.

And he's been tapering off in the regular season - some of that this season was him taking the checking line center role - which he also did in the 1st four games against the Bruins. There is some explanation for it.

In preseason, he logged one of the faster skating times - worked on it over the summer. He also seems to skate a lot as I vaguely recall from some stat I saw a while ago.

A year from now, you'll have a core 3 in their prime and his big contract off the books - maybe in a lesser role for much less dough.

Marner is their leading playoff scorer & playoff powerplay scorer. If they're worried about scoring in the playoffs you usually do not erase the top scorer to solve that problem. You give him some guys to play with that are better at scoring. In 2024, Marner got Tavares for the 1st four games and they were a checking line against Pastrnak - with a lot of d-zone starts. Then, they move him to be with Domi & Bertuzzi - which put two distributors of the puck on one line with a 2nd tier finisher. And people wonder why/how his scoring got compromised? It may not be fully explained by that but that was a hunk of the problem - aside from Bruins checking and goaltending.

I'd patch it up in goal, with dmen and a couple of forwards. If they do a decent job of that, they're close to last year: a top 6 contender or so with a shot to steal it if their goalie gets hot. The following year, when Tavares dough comes off, they can add more and fix what didn't work.

There are no guarantees. But something like that allows them to knock on the door a few times with the core 3.

McCabe-Brodie were seemingly an excellent pair going into the 2022-23 playoffs. The wheels fell off. I saw Brodie tapered off this season. I've never really felt I grasped what the heck happened there. McCabe shows up this season and he has me wondering if he's top 5 - he's not top 4. He obviously turned it around.

Rielly had a great playoff last season. He seemed to be going ok this year. Around the time of his suspension, he seemed to taper off and never recovered. If Rielly played in this year's playoffs like he did last year, the Leafs beat the Bruins. So whatever happened there is troubling. I'd sure want to better understand that as I reconstruct the dmen ...

I don't see Marner resigning let alone with any modicum of cap hit that the fan base is likely to swallow.

I've only been watching about 60 years.
I honestly cannot ever recall management or ownership paying much serious attention to what the fan base thought about how much a player should be paid. Usually, like now, management are too busy looking over their shoulder at ownership dangling a pink slip to worry much about what the fans thought players should be paid. Around the MLSE water cooler, that notion would probably get a few laughs.

I cannot recall a players agent seriously soliciting the fan base's input in contract negotiations either.

The fans are fickle. If Marner scores in game 7 OT, they'll be trying to erect a statue. Pastrnak scores on a play Paul Maurice & another past Leafs assistant coach question was Marner's responsibility and the fans want him tarred and feathered. They're howling that Marner is responsible for the lack of playoff scoring and should be gotten rid of because of it overlooking that he leads the Leafs in playoff scoring and the forwards in playoff +/-, etc since he showed up. Marner understands the 'God-like' worship and 'Demon-like' hate that can change on a play. What coaching and management should be doing is standing up for their asset. If they don't do that, I wouldn't blame Marner for letting his contract expire without a trade. They would be getting exactly what they deserve for their conduct. They're supposed to be a team that stands up for each other.

For the record, I was not a big fan of Marner being drafted because of his size. I was worried about his ability to compete at the NHL level with the bigger bodies, etc.

I looked at some Leafs history. Here's where these Leafs greats ranked in NHL scoring over their first 8 years in the NHL:
Matthews 7th
Mahovlich 8th
Sittler 10th
Marner 10th
Keon 11th
McDonald 13th
Sundin 15th
Gilmour 19th
Vaive 26th
Nylander 28th
Kessel 33rd
Clark 160th (injured some)

When you look at all the guys he's around in offense in today's NHL, his current pay is commensurate with those players - you might bicker about a few hundred grand while ignoring that he PK's and plays two ways.

His playoff ppg, which leads his team over 8 years, is .88 which is 27th in the league (30+ playoff games played) and ties him with Alex Ovechkin and Conn Smythe winner Ryan O'Reilly during those 8 years. Not too shabby in the games that matter most.

I'm still not a gigantic fan of Marner's but it is tough to disrespect what he has done since he showed up. He's clearly one of the better players to ever pull on a Leafs jersey. He deserves to be paid accordingly. The chances of them recovering his full asset value in a trade under these circumstances is not good and would probably compromise Matthews' chances of ever leading a parade in Toronto. You do not get guys like this too often. Management would be wise to straighten out the fans and protect their asset - for their own self preservation if nothing else.
It's less about him, it's more about the reallocation of the salary cap. Tavares will not be paid 8 figures beyond next year so you choose one out of the remaining three 8-figure contracts to go and everyone is choosing Marner. They give their reasoning which is a shit-list of everything bad about him and it comes across as attacking him. The bullying of Marner by some is also done out of frustration and with the intention of pushing him out. I am okay with the bullying approach because management has not addressed the cap allocation issues and making life difficult for Marner may force their hand. If he's resigned, I don't see any of the results changing with this team.

The team's formula doesn't work and a reallocation is necessary.

Yeah, they've tried it with 50% of the cap tied up in 4 players, it's just not happening. If Tavares agrees to move and you retain $4M on his deal, that's $7M to go out and find a player or 2, if you get rid of Marner's 10.9 that's another player or 2. If you can reallocate 2 players and bring in 4 actual NHL better than average players you're talking, especially if one of them is a top 4 dman.

Bender

#281
Quote from: cw on May 15, 2024, 09:15:47 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 14, 2024, 11:05:14 PM
Quote from: cw on May 14, 2024, 08:57:26 PM
Quote from: herman on May 14, 2024, 07:47:25 PMJT is actually the underperforming player I don't think it makes sense to trade.

I think he tries his heart out.
He hit like crazy.
Best faceoff guy in the league or right up there.

But his ppg falls from .95 in the regular season to .67 in the playoffs
Arguably, he's the weakest link in the core 4 when it comes to scoring in the playoffs.

And he's been tapering off in the regular season - some of that this season was him taking the checking line center role - which he also did in the 1st four games against the Bruins. There is some explanation for it.

In preseason, he logged one of the faster skating times - worked on it over the summer. He also seems to skate a lot as I vaguely recall from some stat I saw a while ago.

A year from now, you'll have a core 3 in their prime and his big contract off the books - maybe in a lesser role for much less dough.

Marner is their leading playoff scorer & playoff powerplay scorer. If they're worried about scoring in the playoffs you usually do not erase the top scorer to solve that problem. You give him some guys to play with that are better at scoring. In 2024, Marner got Tavares for the 1st four games and they were a checking line against Pastrnak - with a lot of d-zone starts. Then, they move him to be with Domi & Bertuzzi - which put two distributors of the puck on one line with a 2nd tier finisher. And people wonder why/how his scoring got compromised? It may not be fully explained by that but that was a hunk of the problem - aside from Bruins checking and goaltending.

I'd patch it up in goal, with dmen and a couple of forwards. If they do a decent job of that, they're close to last year: a top 6 contender or so with a shot to steal it if their goalie gets hot. The following year, when Tavares dough comes off, they can add more and fix what didn't work.

There are no guarantees. But something like that allows them to knock on the door a few times with the core 3.

McCabe-Brodie were seemingly an excellent pair going into the 2022-23 playoffs. The wheels fell off. I saw Brodie tapered off this season. I've never really felt I grasped what the heck happened there. McCabe shows up this season and he has me wondering if he's top 5 - he's not top 4. He obviously turned it around.

Rielly had a great playoff last season. He seemed to be going ok this year. Around the time of his suspension, he seemed to taper off and never recovered. If Rielly played in this year's playoffs like he did last year, the Leafs beat the Bruins. So whatever happened there is troubling. I'd sure want to better understand that as I reconstruct the dmen ...

I don't see Marner resigning let alone with any modicum of cap hit that the fan base is likely to swallow.

I've only been watching about 60 years.
I honestly cannot ever recall management or ownership paying much serious attention to what the fan base thought about how much a player should be paid. Usually, like now, management are too busy looking over their shoulder at ownership dangling a pink slip to worry much about what the fans thought players should be paid. Around the MLSE water cooler, that notion would probably get a few laughs.

I cannot recall a players agent seriously soliciting the fan base's input in contract negotiations either.

The fans are fickle. If Marner scores in game 7 OT, they'll be trying to erect a statue. Pastrnak scores on a play Paul Maurice & another past Leafs assistant coach question was Marner's responsibility and the fans want him tarred and feathered. They're howling that Marner is responsible for the lack of playoff scoring and should be gotten rid of because of it overlooking that he leads the Leafs in playoff scoring and the forwards in playoff +/-, etc since he showed up. Marner understands the 'God-like' worship and 'Demon-like' hate that can change on a play. What coaching and management should be doing is standing up for their asset. If they don't do that, I wouldn't blame Marner for letting his contract expire without a trade. They would be getting exactly what they deserve for their conduct. They're supposed to be a team that stands up for each other.

For the record, I was not a big fan of Marner being drafted because of his size. I was worried about his ability to compete at the NHL level with the bigger bodies, etc.

I looked at some Leafs history. Here's where these Leafs greats ranked in NHL scoring over their first 8 years in the NHL:
Matthews 7th
Mahovlich 8th
Sittler 10th
Marner 10th
Keon 11th
McDonald 13th
Sundin 15th
Gilmour 19th
Vaive 26th
Nylander 28th
Kessel 33rd
Clark 160th (injured some)

When you look at all the guys he's around in offense in today's NHL, his current pay is commensurate with those players - you might bicker about a few hundred grand while ignoring that he PK's and plays two ways.

His playoff ppg, which leads his team over 8 years, is .88 which is 27th in the league (30+ playoff games played) and ties him with Alex Ovechkin and Conn Smythe winner Ryan O'Reilly during those 8 years. Not too shabby in the games that matter most.

I'm still not a gigantic fan of Marner's but it is tough to disrespect what he has done since he showed up. He's clearly one of the better players to ever pull on a Leafs jersey. He deserves to be paid accordingly. The chances of them recovering his full asset value in a trade under these circumstances is not good and would probably compromise Matthews' chances of ever leading a parade in Toronto. You do not get guys like this too often. Management would be wise to straighten out the fans and protect their asset - for their own self preservation if nothing else.

I don't think Marner is cut out for the spotlight here. Every year he and his camp gets more and more adversarial with the media and he looks miserable. Even if we were to allocate $12M towards a Marner deal, which I am loathe to do, and I think the Leafs are probably loathe to do, why would he resign here if he is tired of getting gutted by the fans and media? You can write out all the stats in the world and it really doesn't change the situation at all. Marner could've straightended out the fans by not saying idiotic things to the media, playing ball on his RFA contract, and scoring when it actually mattered. These were all in his control and are of his own doing. The team had a player friendly coach and now Mitch isn't going to have his sensitive nature protected anymore and that's just TS. The kid gloves are going to come off and rightfully so. All options must be explored and if they can come to a contract agreement, so be it, I just don't see it happening.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

herman

Quote from: Zee on May 15, 2024, 11:28:51 AMIf Tavares agrees to move and you retain $4M on his deal, that's $7M to go out and find a player or 2, if you get rid of Marner's 10.9 that's another player or 2.

They have NMCs so you're not going to just get straight cap dumps for future considerations. Anyone they're willing to waive to be traded to will also be sending cap hits back as they're likely in their contention windows.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Zee

Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Zee on May 15, 2024, 11:28:51 AMIf Tavares agrees to move and you retain $4M on his deal, that's $7M to go out and find a player or 2, if you get rid of Marner's 10.9 that's another player or 2.

They have NMCs so you're not going to just get straight cap dumps for future considerations. Anyone they're willing to waive to be traded to will also be sending cap hits back as they're likely in their contention windows.

Right, I wasn't suggesting they are gone as cap dumps, but they have to target getting different types of players back based on their cap hits.  You're not getting back an 11 million dollar player in a Marner deal, so who knows what type of d-man or forward you get.  If they're in the 6-7million range you still have a few million to use to get someone else.

Dappleganger

Quote from: Zee on May 15, 2024, 12:17:56 PM
Quote from: herman on May 15, 2024, 11:58:21 AM
Quote from: Zee on May 15, 2024, 11:28:51 AMIf Tavares agrees to move and you retain $4M on his deal, that's $7M to go out and find a player or 2, if you get rid of Marner's 10.9 that's another player or 2.

They have NMCs so you're not going to just get straight cap dumps for future considerations. Anyone they're willing to waive to be traded to will also be sending cap hits back as they're likely in their contention windows.

Right, I wasn't suggesting they are gone as cap dumps, but they have to target getting different types of players back based on their cap hits.  You're not getting back an 11 million dollar player in a Marner deal, so who knows what type of d-man or forward you get.  If they're in the 6-7million range you still have a few million to use to get someone else.

Something akin to what transpired in the Pierre-Luc Dubois deal last year.