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2024 Offseason Thread: Changes

Started by herman, May 05, 2024, 02:40:35 PM

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Zee

#105
Quote from: herman on May 07, 2024, 10:19:59 AMhttps://twitter.com/LeafsNews/status/1787864153715077314
Quote"The challenge here in Toronto is not coming up with the plan. The challenge in Toronto is sticking to it."
Those were Brendan Shanahan's famous words when he was hired as Leafs President and set out to rebuild the ailing, storied franchise. For an organization that had been stuck in the mud for a decade at the time, it was critical that they actually put a plan in place and stuck to it to climb out of the basement and ascend the standings.

They have mostly done that, making the playoffs for eight straight years. But when you make the playoffs eight straight years and all you have to show for it is one playoff series win, it isn't about sticking to a long-term plan anymore; it's about being honest about where the organization stands in the here and now.

I'd argue that they veered from the plan literally after Matthews was drafted.  I had *thought* the plan was to bottom out a few seasons and accumulate a stockpile of talent.  After Matthews was drafted, nobody expected the team to make the playoffs that first year, when they were in contention for a spot, management suddenly thought it was a good idea to hang onto all their expiring UFAs instead of dealing them for picks and go in for a playoff run.  That was stupid.  They should have dealt all the expiring talent from 2016/2017 that would have brought back 1st round draft picks or more (see JVR/Bozak) and continued with the draft and development strategy.  Who knows, they may have STILL made the playoffs even after dealing those guys because Matthews/Marner/Nylander would have played more down the stretch in that season.  They could have built up their prospect pool more, tried for some high end defensive prospects and who knows, maybe 5-6 years after those drafts the guys would be contributors now.

They were dead last in the league in 2015/2016 and got to draft Matthews.  What was the urgency to suddenly become a playoff team and start making deadline decisions like you were a contender in 2016/2017?

cabber24

Paying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Guilt Trip

Quote from: Zee on May 07, 2024, 11:04:23 AMThey were dead last in the league in 2015/2016 and got to draft Matthews.  What was the urgency to suddenly become a playoff team and start making deadline decisions like you were a contender in 2016/2017?
There wasn't an urgency to become a playoff team. The "problem" was they were just that good and they made the playoffs. They didn't make deadline decisions like a contender. They brought in depth centres and proven guys at that. Boyle and Plekanac. Since they were making the playoffs they figured the experience would help them. Look at the sens and Sabres as 2 examples. Great young players and both haven't got near the playoffs yet. Leafs haven't missed since being last in the league.
Anyway we'll see where this goes. I suspect Shanny will be getting a new role with the team and Tre will get what Dubas wanted ultimately and not have to run everything through Shanny.

Guilt Trip

Quote from: cabber24 on May 07, 2024, 11:28:55 AMPaying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.
Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

Zee

#109
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:35:42 AM
Quote from: Zee on May 07, 2024, 11:04:23 AMThey were dead last in the league in 2015/2016 and got to draft Matthews.  What was the urgency to suddenly become a playoff team and start making deadline decisions like you were a contender in 2016/2017?
There wasn't an urgency to become a playoff team. The "problem" was they were just that good and they made the playoffs. They didn't make deadline decisions like a contender. They brought in depth centres and proven guys at that. Boyle and Plekanac. Since they were making the playoffs they figured the experience would help them. Look at the sens and Sabres as 2 examples. Great young players and both haven't got near the playoffs yet. Leafs haven't missed since being last in the league.
Anyway we'll see where this goes. I suspect Shanny will be getting a new role with the team and Tre will get what Dubas wanted ultimately and not have to run everything through Shanny.


They had expiring UFAs of JVR, Bozak on the roster who they knew they weren't going to re-sign. Holding onto those guys as your "own rentals" is thinking like a playoff team and not a rebuilding team.  Let's say they cast off those players, and actually MISSED the playoffs because of it.  Good.  Then the core 3 at the time didn't get their first playoff experience, maybe have a worse following season if management approached it again as a rebuilding team, and then they can't demand as much on their post-ELC deals.  It was all snowball effect right after they decided to add at the deadline as opposed to keep stockpiling.

Also, in hindsight we all know what a dick Babcock turned out to be, but really they should have stuck with their first instinct of hiring Guy Boucher as the head coach in 2015.  The team probably would have been boring as hell defensive hockey style, which might have produced worse results than they got under Babcock, which in turn helps out the "rebuilding" philosophy of stock piling talent.  Let Boucher run the team 3 seasons and then can him for a real coach when you want to start adding.

In short I come to bury Shanahan not to praise him. LOL

Rob

Quote from: Zee on May 07, 2024, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:35:42 AM
Quote from: Zee on May 07, 2024, 11:04:23 AMThey were dead last in the league in 2015/2016 and got to draft Matthews.  What was the urgency to suddenly become a playoff team and start making deadline decisions like you were a contender in 2016/2017?
There wasn't an urgency to become a playoff team. The "problem" was they were just that good and they made the playoffs. They didn't make deadline decisions like a contender. They brought in depth centres and proven guys at that. Boyle and Plekanac. Since they were making the playoffs they figured the experience would help them. Look at the sens and Sabres as 2 examples. Great young players and both haven't got near the playoffs yet. Leafs haven't missed since being last in the league.
Anyway we'll see where this goes. I suspect Shanny will be getting a new role with the team and Tre will get what Dubas wanted ultimately and not have to run everything through Shanny.


They had expiring UFAs of JVR, Bozak on the roster who they knew they weren't going to re-sign. Holding onto those guys as your "own rentals" is thinking like a playoff team and not a rebuilding team.  Let's say they cast off those players, and actually MISSED the playoffs because of it.  Good.  Then the core 3 at the time didn't get their first playoff experience, maybe have a worse following season if management approached it again as a rebuilding team, and then they can't demand as much on their post-ELC deals.  It was all snowball effect right after they decided to add at the deadline as opposed to keep stockpiling.

Also, in hindsight we all know what a dick Babcock turned out to be, but really they should have stuck with their first instinct of hiring Guy Boucher as the head coach in 2015.  The team probably would have been boring as hell defensive hockey style, which might have produced worse results than they got under Babcock, which in turn helps out the "rebuilding" philosophy of stock piling talent.  Let Boucher run the team 3 seasons and then can him for a real coach when you want to start adding.

In short I come to bury Shanahan not to praise him. LOL

And also traded a first for Freddy. 

herman

There are 4 S's to hockey scouting: Skills, Skating, Smarts, Speed

I want to add a 5th: Showtime, or Spotlight
It's a skill to be able to harness the emotions of a situation or circumstance and direct it in a constructive, fruitful manner.

I think Wes Clark has targeted this in the players he's identified recently, on top of their high motor/high floor foundations. Minten/Lisowsky, Cowan, Knies, all stepped up in their respective playoff runs. The Leafs nabbed Jacob Quillan who snuffed out Knies' championship hopes last season with the OT dagger. It's a factor that can cripple any other standout skill, smarts, skating, speed quality if you don't have it.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Zee

Quote from: Rob on May 07, 2024, 12:18:50 PM
Quote from: Zee on May 07, 2024, 11:57:37 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:35:42 AM
Quote from: Zee on May 07, 2024, 11:04:23 AMThey were dead last in the league in 2015/2016 and got to draft Matthews.  What was the urgency to suddenly become a playoff team and start making deadline decisions like you were a contender in 2016/2017?
There wasn't an urgency to become a playoff team. The "problem" was they were just that good and they made the playoffs. They didn't make deadline decisions like a contender. They brought in depth centres and proven guys at that. Boyle and Plekanac. Since they were making the playoffs they figured the experience would help them. Look at the sens and Sabres as 2 examples. Great young players and both haven't got near the playoffs yet. Leafs haven't missed since being last in the league.
Anyway we'll see where this goes. I suspect Shanny will be getting a new role with the team and Tre will get what Dubas wanted ultimately and not have to run everything through Shanny.


They had expiring UFAs of JVR, Bozak on the roster who they knew they weren't going to re-sign. Holding onto those guys as your "own rentals" is thinking like a playoff team and not a rebuilding team.  Let's say they cast off those players, and actually MISSED the playoffs because of it.  Good.  Then the core 3 at the time didn't get their first playoff experience, maybe have a worse following season if management approached it again as a rebuilding team, and then they can't demand as much on their post-ELC deals.  It was all snowball effect right after they decided to add at the deadline as opposed to keep stockpiling.

Also, in hindsight we all know what a dick Babcock turned out to be, but really they should have stuck with their first instinct of hiring Guy Boucher as the head coach in 2015.  The team probably would have been boring as hell defensive hockey style, which might have produced worse results than they got under Babcock, which in turn helps out the "rebuilding" philosophy of stock piling talent.  Let Boucher run the team 3 seasons and then can him for a real coach when you want to start adding.

In short I come to bury Shanahan not to praise him. LOL

And also traded a first for Freddy. 

I forgot about that too.  Yeah hindisght is 20/20 but we've got 8 years now to see that the Shanaplan didn't work.  Who knows if they had remained patient another 2-3 years beyond 2016, would the team be better off now?  It's hard to imagine it being worse.

Frank E

I think we should remember that Shanahan did add some element of stability to an organization that was a bit of a mess...he added it through people that had experience and tenure, and some young bucks.  But I think maybe that he started then to want to be the orchestrator rather than the overseer, and shit went sideways.

cabber24

Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: cabber24 on May 07, 2024, 11:28:55 AMPaying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.
Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.
Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Rob

Quote from: Frank E on May 07, 2024, 12:51:41 PMI think we should remember that Shanahan did add some element of stability to an organization that was a bit of a mess...he added it through people that had experience and tenure, and some young bucks.  But I think maybe that he started then to want to be the orchestrator rather than the overseer, and shit went sideways.

I'd say he has done a TREMENDOUS job with the organisation, outside of on-ice success.   

Bender

Quote from: cabber24 on May 07, 2024, 12:54:27 PM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: cabber24 on May 07, 2024, 11:28:55 AMPaying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.
Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.
Marner (aka "a God") cannot contribute in the playoffs and is overpaid.

Matthews got top dollar and a short-term twice, no one has ever gotten paid so much on a shorter-term contract.

Tavares was #2 paid in the league only behind McDavid when signed.

Nylander got paid on projection, not on production (half a season at a career-high pace), Nylander's previous contract was higher than all his 60-point-peers.


The really bad part of signing Tavares wasn't actually his on ice production, imo it's that the three ended up using it as leverage against the team. If they just have those three guys and there's nobody else on the team to peg contracts to (except each other) but why wouldn't the bar be lower? They were RFAs and the team had all the cards and instead of playing hardball like the Canucks did with threatening Pettersen with a trade and being ruthless Dubas thought he was one of the guys when he should've been their boss.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender


cabber24

Quote from: Dappleganger on May 07, 2024, 01:37:05 PMMarner. Doing god-like things:

https://twitter.com/TicTacTOmar/status/1784407969108459994
When that happened I thought to myself it would have been nice to see him get clobbered pulling that nonsense off. What a useless playoff and he'll be remembered for this? Go build your Instagram page somewhere else.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Joe

Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2024, 11:40:15 AM
Quote from: cabber24 on May 07, 2024, 11:28:55 AMPaying guys off the charts to the detriment of everything else is a terrible plan.
Who was really paid off the charts? Not Matthews or Willy. Marner maybe a million too much? Too much, sure but not PLD, Huberdeau bad.

And who gave Huberdeau that contract? Not that I'm disagreeing with your overall point.