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2024 Blue Jays

Started by Arn, December 05, 2023, 08:35:47 AM

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Joe

In my opinion, Atkins made 3 critical mistakes:

1. Not realizing how important Semien was to the jays. I know this screams of hindsight but the Springer contract should have been Semien's. look I know he was a FA and out of the teams control, but if there was any possibility of bringing him back they should have gone all in on that

2. Grossly underestimating Hernandez's value to the offence. This move is just inexplicable. Sure he was a defensive liability, but that's what the DH position is for. They have not adequately filled that role since Encarnacion

3. And by extension the Varsho trade. So I get this move, and I like Varsho, but this move makes infinitely more sense if Hernandez is on the team.

I firmly believe that those first 2 moves had been reversed we'd be looking at a very different, and entertaining teams now.

I'll throw in not trading Kirk when people seemed to have been fooled that he's an MLb player. But I kinda believe, in the back of my head that other GMs weren't that stupid to think that Kirk was valuable, but if Atkins had anyone at all
Interested he should have cashed that chip in.

Peter D.

Quote from: Arn on June 11, 2024, 04:43:10 AMFrom The Athletic:

QuoteBlue Jays GM Ross Atkins doesn't think it makes sense to trade shortstop Bo Bichette and/or first baseman Vladimir Guerrero Jr. because he'd much rather sign both to long-term extensions. However, if the Blue Jays can't do that by the trade deadline, they'd be foolish not to shop both. One rival executive believes a deadline trade involving either one will only happen if Atkins is replaced.

I dunno what the answer is. Maybe that last line.

Both Vladdy and Bo should have been signed long-term by now.

Trading either or both, or even worse losing both to free agency in the coming offseasons, would be the cherry on top of what's become a failed tenure by Shapiro and Atkins.  To say they've underachieved with this group and the resources afforded to them would be an understatement.

Andy

Quote from: Peter D. on June 11, 2024, 11:24:47 PM
Quote from: Arn on June 11, 2024, 04:43:10 AMFrom The Athletic:

QuoteBlue Jays GM Ross Atkins doesn't think it makes sense to trade shortstop Bo Bichette and/or first baseman Vladimir Guerrero Jr. because he'd much rather sign both to long-term extensions. However, if the Blue Jays can't do that by the trade deadline, they'd be foolish not to shop both. One rival executive believes a deadline trade involving either one will only happen if Atkins is replaced.

I dunno what the answer is. Maybe that last line.

Both Vladdy and Bo should have been signed long-term by now.

Trading either or both, or even worse losing both to free agency in the coming offseasons, would be the cherry on top of what's become a failed tenure by Shapiro and Atkins
.  To say they've underachieved with this group and the resources afforded to them would be an understatement.

I'm not so sure that's an indictment, considering one is a .600 ops flawed SS and the other a .780 no power below average 1B who is an atrocious base runner. Having both locked up at monumental numbers on long-term extensions would only exacerbate the perceived overall failure.


bustaheims

Quote from: Andy on June 12, 2024, 08:08:44 AMI'm not so sure that's an indictment, considering one is a .600 ops flawed SS and the other a .780 no power below average 1B who is an atrocious base runner. Having both locked up at monumental numbers on long-term extensions would only exacerbate the perceived overall failure.

Sure, if you're going to base your entire assessment of the ~60 games this season rather than their entire careers...
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Andy

Quote from: bustaheims on June 12, 2024, 09:26:07 AM
Quote from: Andy on June 12, 2024, 08:08:44 AMI'm not so sure that's an indictment, considering one is a .600 ops flawed SS and the other a .780 no power below average 1B who is an atrocious base runner. Having both locked up at monumental numbers on long-term extensions would only exacerbate the perceived overall failure.

Sure, if you're going to base your entire assessment of the ~60 games this season rather than their entire careers...

If one were to base their assessment of Vladdy taking into account his entire career, I'm not sure the argument for a long-term deal becomes any stronger. He was even worse last year and has merely one great season under his belt (the covid year where he played in a minor league ballpark the entire time). 1 year 1.000 OPS, 5 years all between .770 and .820. In fact, in 4 of his 6 full years he was a sub .800 OPS player...as a average, at best, 1B with atrocious base running.

With Bichette you're right, he has never hit this poorly before and it's still early. My point with him is simply that I can understand why there might be some trepidation regarding signing him to an egregious, long-term deal when he was really struggled defensively and with consistency at the plate.


cabber24

Quote from: Frank E on June 12, 2024, 08:32:03 AMhttps://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-trading-cavan-biggio-to-dodgers/
Although he didn't develop into a core player he was a decent utility guy and played everywhere. I am kind of surprised they traded him, can't every team use a Biggio as a fill-in when needed?
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Joe

Quote from: cabber24 on June 12, 2024, 10:15:21 AM
Quote from: Frank E on June 12, 2024, 08:32:03 AMhttps://www.sportsnet.ca/mlb/article/blue-jays-trading-cavan-biggio-to-dodgers/
Although he didn't develop into a core player he was a decent utility guy and played everywhere. I am kind of surprised they traded him, can't every team use a Biggio as a fill-in when needed?

 To be fair he was never projected to even be an MLB player, so there were no expectations of him being a core player.

And to be honest, I'm not even sure how decent a utility guy he was. He could play any position at a sub par level and was sub par at the plate.

Seems like a decent enough guy, but he's a fringe mlb player at best.

Dappleganger

Biggio never quite got the bat going enough to carve out a full-time role.


Arn

Rip it up and start again.
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

Frank E

Quote from: Arn on June 20, 2024, 05:37:04 AMRip it up and start again.

There is just no sense of where this is even going. 


Arn

Yeah by rip,it down and start again, I pretty much mean from the very top. New GM, management, trade the expiring contracts.

They've completely blown this window of possible contention and wasted what potential Bo and Vlad etc had.
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

IJustLurkHere

Quote from: Arn on June 20, 2024, 07:59:55 AMYeah by rip,it down and start again, I pretty much mean from the very top. New GM, management, trade the expiring contracts.

They've completely blown this window of possible contention and wasted what potential Bo and Vlad etc had.

Bo and Vlad aren't the victims in the story of this Blue Jays season. The team is built around them and they haven't produced. 

We're getting towards the end of their team control years now and the team has to decide. Pay them as stars (which is I assume their ask and why they haven't already got long term deals), or move on and risk them figuring it out elsewhere.


Arn

Quote from: IJustLurkHere on June 20, 2024, 06:52:15 PM
Quote from: Arn on June 20, 2024, 07:59:55 AMYeah by rip,it down and start again, I pretty much mean from the very top. New GM, management, trade the expiring contracts.

They've completely blown this window of possible contention and wasted what potential Bo and Vlad etc had.

Bo and Vlad aren't the victims in the story of this Blue Jays season. The team is built around them and they haven't produced. 

We're getting towards the end of their team control years now and the team has to decide. Pay them as stars (which is I assume their ask and why they haven't already got long term deals), or move on and risk them figuring it out elsewhere.



Yes, I include them in the wasting of the potential. Probably more so Vlad.
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

L K

George Springer is 12th in batting average on the Blue Jays this year.  He's 10th in on base percentage.  He's 13th in slugging percentage.  He's 11th in OBP.  He's 11th in OPS+. 

He's 2nd in plate appearances.  It's absurd.