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Penguins vs. Maple Leafs - Nov. 25th, 7:00pm - SN, TSN 1050

Started by CarltonTheBear, November 24, 2023, 10:45:59 PM

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Bill_Berg

Quote from: herman on November 27, 2023, 09:41:27 AMa) I like Marner and I think he's a good/great player
b) I am not saying this stuff just because of this short run of issues recently; it's been years: he sewers the top line when the game gets tight
c) everyone on the team gets their ice-time leash yanked once in awhile: except for Marner and Matthews.
MLHS has talked about this plenty, and it was brought up obliquely in Treliving's first presser: this is a team, not just the core 4. But when the ice is tilted into our net, guess who the coach loads up even if they're playing blah? You don't have a team if you operate in a caste system. Come playoff time, your core 4 is gassed and your supporting cast has no impetus to step up: they know they're just killing clock.

Well this is bleak. Perhaps true, but also bleak.

herman

One wonders if we should have just kept Hyman instead.
5.5M AAV Hyman with Edmonton: 175 GP, 75G, 84A, 159Pts

Since Hyman left:
11.64M AAV Matthews: 166 GP, 114G, 98A, 212Pts
10.9M AAV Marner: 171 GP, 70G, 146A, 216Pts
6.9M AAV Nylander: 182 GP, 86G, 108A, 194Pts

Note that I'm not calling Marner lazy or anything like that. If anything, he tries too hard to solve problems the fanciest possible way. When there is no space, the game gets very basic and if you're on the wing and you're the third or fourth shooting threat on your line, you have to help get the puck back.

One thing that should help Marner excel again is adjusting his puck carrying more into his hip pocket, not out a full stick length in front of his skates.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

azzurri63

#137
Quote from: herman on November 27, 2023, 09:41:27 AMa) I like Marner and I think he's a good/great player
b) I am not saying this stuff just because of this short run of issues recently; it's been years: he sewers the top line when the game gets tight
c) everyone on the team gets their ice-time leash yanked once in awhile: except for Marner and Matthews.
MLHS has talked about this plenty, and it was brought up obliquely in Treliving's first presser: this is a team, not just the core 4. But when the ice is tilted into our net, guess who the coach loads up even if they're playing blah? You don't have a team if you operate in a caste system. Come playoff time, your core 4 is gassed and your supporting cast has no impetus to step up: they know they're just killing clock.


Said it a thousand times the 2 run the show. When Nylander was going through some tough times, was benched or moved down the lineup no one made a peep about it. When Marner was benched last year and pulled his fit he was back on the ice after a couple lost shifts and Keefe had to come up with an excuse for the benching. These guys have been givie everything from day 1 and more than I would have gave them so early in their careers when neither one of them elevate their game come crunch time. For the most part disappear. MLSE doesn't give a s**t about winning because they are either blind or stupid or maybe even both. The writing has been on the wall with this team for the last few years but I think management thinks one day it's going to magically change. It should have been dissected already and I think the longer they wait the worse it's going to be because Treliving may do the same mortgage the future in the hope that they go far. I don't see it happening. Problem is nothing can be done with these NMC's to change the chemistry of this team with some bold moves because it's long overdue.

Bullfrog

Quote from: herman on November 27, 2023, 09:41:27 AMa) I like Marner and I think he's a good/great player
b) I am not saying this stuff just because of this short run of issues recently; it's been years: he sewers the top line when the game gets tight
c) everyone on the team gets their ice-time leash yanked once in awhile: except for Marner and Matthews.
MLHS has talked about this plenty, and it was brought up obliquely in Treliving's first presser: this is a team, not just the core 4. But when the ice is tilted into our net, guess who the coach loads up even if they're playing blah? You don't have a team if you operate in a caste system. Come playoff time, your core 4 is gassed and your supporting cast has no impetus to step up: they know they're just killing clock.

I don't buy that at all. I'm sorry, but players aren't sitting there sulking because Matthews and Marner are first over the boards.

herman

Quote from: Bullfrog on November 27, 2023, 01:29:17 PM
Quote from: herman on November 27, 2023, 09:41:27 AMa) I like Marner and I think he's a good/great player
b) I am not saying this stuff just because of this short run of issues recently; it's been years: he sewers the top line when the game gets tight
c) everyone on the team gets their ice-time leash yanked once in awhile: except for Marner and Matthews.
MLHS has talked about this plenty, and it was brought up obliquely in Treliving's first presser: this is a team, not just the core 4. But when the ice is tilted into our net, guess who the coach loads up even if they're playing blah? You don't have a team if you operate in a caste system. Come playoff time, your core 4 is gassed and your supporting cast has no impetus to step up: they know they're just killing clock.

I don't buy that at all. I'm sorry, but players aren't sitting there sulking because Matthews and Marner are first over the boards.

I don't think anyone is sulking. Just in terms of extrinsic motivation techniques, this puts a solid (mental) cap on your roster depth, at a time when teams live and die by their depth production (particularly if their top producers suffer a power outage).

Like there's barely any reward for PP2 generating well in limited minutes (because they don't fart around with the puck), other than Jarnkrok playing extra shifts with Kampf's line.
#27 #TeamFasstholes


archie holdsworth

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on November 27, 2023, 01:57:45 PMhttps://twitter.com/dalter/status/1729208176074162646

The Florida road trip was... game 4...

I can see it taking this long to play out.

klingberg tweaks something early in the season. He thinks he can play through it. Most pro athletes would probably try to. It ends up taking the better part of 2 months to become obvious that he can't.

What I don't know is how much the medical staff can over-ride a player's desire to play. Do they have the authority to shut a player down, or is it the player's decision, or some combination?

LTIR looks pretty likely at this point. The Leafs will get accused of committing nefarious activities, but who cares?

Joe

Quote from: herman on November 27, 2023, 10:47:43 AMOne wonders if we should have just kept Hyman instead.
5.5M AAV Hyman with Edmonton: 175 GP, 75G, 84A, 159Pts

Since Hyman left:
11.64M AAV Matthews: 166 GP, 114G, 98A, 212Pts
10.9M AAV Marner: 171 GP, 70G, 146A, 216Pts
6.9M AAV Nylander: 182 GP, 86G, 108A, 194Pts

Note that I'm not calling Marner lazy or anything like that. If anything, he tries too hard to solve problems the fanciest possible way. When there is no space, the game gets very basic and if you're on the wing and you're the third or fourth shooting threat on your line, you have to help get the puck back.

One thing that should help Marner excel again is adjusting his puck carrying more into his hip pocket, not out a full stick length in front of his skates.

Nothing Hyman did in Toronto pointed that he'd be a ppg player and actually remain healthy.

I liked hyman when he was with the leafs but you have to look at that contract in the context of its time. Absolutely no one would have predicted this. And if they say they did, they're lying.

I would also point out that the exact same conversations were being had about Marner last season at this time and he ended the season with 99 points.

And lastly, completely out of context, this team just isn't good and is currently constructed very poorly.

CarltonTheBear

Quote from: archie holdsworth on November 27, 2023, 02:38:09 PMWhat I don't know is how much the medical staff can over-ride a player's desire to play. Do they have the authority to shut a player down, or is it the player's decision, or some combination?

It feels like it's one of those things where it's generally a players decision until the very end when a team steps in. It's sometimes tricky from a medical staff perspective because players are often playing through some type of injury or pain but sometimes it doesn't make the injury worse or the player's play isn't worse because of it. This was obviously not one of those times.

Dreger (IIRC) made a comment about how after Klingberg sat out the Calgary game before the Sweden trip the Leafs were surprised that he ended up playing the Vancouver game the night after because they felt the chance for a long break for him would have been beneficial to him. But like you said, it's kind of bizarre that decision was even apparently left up to him.

L K

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on November 27, 2023, 01:57:45 PMhttps://twitter.com/dalter/status/1729208176074162646

The Florida road trip was... game 4...

That probably fits with timeline of his play getting notably worse.  I would imagine he tried to play through it.  We lost McCabe to injury 2 games later on the 26th.  Liljegren left the game on the 28th, came back for a game and then got Marchand'ed Nov 2.  So I could see that Klingberg was going to try and just play through it given we were using a few callup defensemen already.

I still really don't understand why he played in the Vancouver game.  I get why he travelled with the team to Sweden.  Even if he didn't play in Sweden (and obviously the flight messed him up even more) he was not moving like an NHL defenseman.  He was ok at best in the Vancouver game and missing one game for a guy who now might never play another NHL game seems like a bad decision from the team.   Too much trusting the player to say he's good to go.   I feel like the Leafs did that last year with Sammy.  He was clearly playing hurt.  His game suffered for it and it lingered into the postseason.