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Leafs to place Murray on LTIR

Started by CarltonTheBear, July 26, 2023, 11:10:29 AM

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Bill_Berg

He was probably not 100% in the playoffs and just wanted to play.  Now he wants access to a year's worth of Leafs medical stuff, and the full 8mil, so he's willing to call it quits on this year. Then he can use the year and the Leafs medical services to prep for a comeback next year.

Nik


The Toronto Maple Leafs are my favourite spreadsheet.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

cabber24

The Leafs cannot force someone onto LTIR can they? I guess they do have their own doctors on the payroll. If Murray disagrees I would imagine players and their union will take notice. Burying a 29-year-old is not a good look.
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

Dappleganger

Murray gets more money if he isn't bought out so I could see why someone would be in favour of that. If there's an injury to one of the guys with a higher salary Murray could even come back from LTIR.

Dappleganger

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2023, 11:40:35 AM
Quote from: Dappleganger on July 26, 2023, 11:38:00 AMWaive Reaves or Timmins. Doesn't anyone think both wouldn't clear? If you take Timmins you HAVE to play him (or press box him) and who in their right mind would want to pick up 3 years of Reaves?

If Treliving thought 'we'll give Reaves 3 years so no one will claim him on waivers.' Kudos.

Well, they aren't waiving Reaves so just scratch that possibility off immediately.

Lafferty and Timmins are both interesting waiver possibilities though. If their cap space gets used on someone else (physical D) It might be worth keeping them with the expectation they'll be going on waivers at the end of camp. If they clear, that's solid depth at no cap hit on the Marlies. If right now teams are only offering very minimal returns then passing on those could be worth the waivers risk.

What about the waiving of Spezza where it was apparently known if he was claimed he wouldn't report and it wasn't to put him in the minors, but strictly for cap reasons. I wouldn't know why that wouldn't be a possibility with Reaves.

Highlander

Quote from: cabber24 on July 26, 2023, 02:26:27 PMThe Leafs cannot force someone onto LTIR can they? I guess they do have their own doctors on the payroll. If Murray disagrees I would imagine players and their union will take notice. Burying a 29-year-old is not a good look.
At 8 million you can bury me!
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki

CarltonTheBear

#21
Quote from: Dappleganger on July 26, 2023, 02:42:13 PMWhat about the waiving of Spezza where it was apparently known if he was claimed he wouldn't report and it wasn't to put him in the minors, but strictly for cap reasons. I wouldn't know why that wouldn't be a possibility with Reaves.

The Spezza thing was largely a temporary move for cap shenanigan reasons. He was literally back on the roster immediately and didn't miss a single game due to do it. We might also see the Leafs do some weird roster moves at the end of the upcoming training camp in order to maximize their LTIR space but even then I doubt Reaves would be a guy that gets shuffled down.

The Spezza threat was legitimate, and everybody knew it. Nobody would believe that Reaves would just pass up $4mil over the next 3 seasons because he has to play for a team other than Toronto, who he has no loyalty to, next season. And earlier you asked "who in their right mind would want to pick up 3 years of Reaves"... well Toronto would. They did. And they won't risk another team thinking the same.

Arn

I Saw Jay McClement Score.

Michael

I do not understand whether or not LTIR helps their cap situation on Day 1 or not. Some people talk about their need to be compliant on Day 1 and then only on Day 2 they can put Muzzin and Murray on LTIR.

First of all, is that true? And if true, how in the world could they manage to do that?

Guilt Trip

#24
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2023, 11:21:51 AMCurrent roster/cap number after this:

Bertuzzi-Matthews-Marner
Domi-Tavares-Nylander
Knies-Kampf-Jarnkrok
McMann/Holmberg-Lafferty-Reaves

Rielly-Brodie
McCabe-Liljegren
Giordano-Klingberg
Timmins

Samsonov
Woll

That roster is still $450-500k over the cap, depending on the 12th forward. So another move is still required.

Possible options:
1) Waive/trade Timmins. This gives the Leafs just a 20-man roster and $600k of cap space that can't really be used.

2) Waive/trade Lafferty, replace with Gambrell (league min). This still puts the Leafs $84k over the salary cap. They would still need to waive/trade Timmins, but that would give them enough cap space to carry either a 13th forward or 7th defenceman who makes under $1mil.

3) Trade Jarnkrok. This gives the Leafs enough cap space to keep Lafferty, Timmins, and enough cap space to carry both a 13th forward and a 7th defenceman on the roster. So arguably hurts the roster the most since Jarnkrok is the more valuable player of the 3 but it provides the most cap space/roster flexibility.

4) Screw it, trade all 3 of Jarnkrok, Timmins, and Lafferty. This gives the Leafs a 20-man roster with $2.3mil in cap space if Treliving had his eye on either a different middle-6 forward option and/or a physical defenceman.
How about just running 11/7 with a 20 man roster and keeping Jarnkrok and Laff/Timmins? Personally I'd move Jarnkrok and go with a 23 man roster. I think Laff is just as good defensively and if given the chance would put up some decent numbers in the top 6 like Jarnkrok.

cw

Quote from: Bender on July 26, 2023, 01:06:17 PM
Quote from: cw on July 26, 2023, 11:40:02 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 26, 2023, 11:10:29 AMhttps://twitter.com/leafspr/status/1684232270704414720

Buyout window closed due to no one placed on waivers.

By my calculation they have 21 roster players (not on LTIR) and are $0.46 mil over the cap.
They could start Knies with the Marlies without exposing another Leafs player to waivers.
They could waive Timmins, McMann, or Lafferty to get below the cap.
They could trade a player to get below the cap.

I suspect a trade because they need a physical dman to replace Holl/Schenn.

If Murray starts the season on LTIR and a few weeks later says "I'm ok to play now ...", they have a BIG cap problem. At his age, it is hard to imagine Robidas island appealing to him. $8 mil 2023-24 salary is almost untradeable with no cap space to retain and no signing bonus eating a bunch of it. I suspect they're just kicking the can down the road hoping for some sort of a break.

I would have a hard time thinking they didn't consult Murray beforehand about being absent a year if they could've just not put him on LTIR and just bought him out. I really don't see this as a gamble.

We have this end of year interview where he maintains he was good to go in the playoffs and anticipates a summer of preparation for next season
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UawAWKQ2x0A&ab_channel=TorontoMapleLeafs

Then we have Elliott Friedman's report that the buyout maybe was not an option due to injury. Which is corroborated in part by the Leafs announcement today of putting him on LTIR. Friedman's report and the announcement corroborates they had some discussion with Murray.

Concussion symptoms back? Maybe
Hurt himself working out? Maybe

But it certainly didn't look like a career or season ending injury last May when he said he was fine to play in the playoffs AFTER the playoffs were over and he said he felt good to train over the summer for next season.

70 days later, he's on LTIR for the whole year or balance of his career? Anything is possible. But that result would be pretty unusual after his year end press conference.

As I Leafs fan who wasn't crazy about Murray, I hope he can stay on LTIR all year.

If I had to bet on it, the Leafs were counting on buying him out and Murray's camp played the injury card.

Guilt Trip

Quote from: cw on July 26, 2023, 06:44:31 PMIf I had to bet on it, the Leafs were counting on buying him out and Murray's camp played the injury card.
I don't buy they're playing the injury card but we're going to find out at some point during the year...

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

I share the bafflement.  Didn't he actually dress as Woll's backup against FLA?  Doesn't the league look into any of this to see if the LTIR claim is legit?

cw

#28
Quote from: Guilt Trip on July 26, 2023, 08:49:30 PM
Quote from: cw on July 26, 2023, 06:44:31 PMIf I had to bet on it, the Leafs were counting on buying him out and Murray's camp played the injury card.
I don't buy they're playing the injury card but we're going to find out at some point during the year...

My meaning of 'playing the injury card' isn't maintaining he is saying he is hurt when he isn't. It is simply saying the position he likely took was "you can't buy me out because I'm injured". For him to be placed on LTIR, it must be true that he claims he's hurt, he's got some medical backup and the Leafs are not disputing that he is hurt because they've gone along with his claim. The NHL rules are that if a player is hurt, he cannot be bought out. By claiming that he is hurt, saved him 1/3 of his $8 mil contract ($2.64 mil in buyout savings is now guaranteed with the balance of his $8 mil).

It is possible that we have a Robidas island arrangement. The Leafs could dispute his injury against a buyout because he was medically cleared at the end of the season and clear as of his year end press conference. So maybe the saw off is "we won't dispute your injury for the buyout and you collect the full $8 mil (the extra $2.64 buyout savings) and sit out for the season" Such an arrangement may well violate the CBA so no one is likely to admit to it. In the next two seasons, that probably represents the best financial reward because he won't make up the $2.64 mil buyout dollars over and above what he would earn on a contract this season. He can spend a year to get healthy for one last crack at the NHL and a contract supported by his year of medical rehab.

cw

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 26, 2023, 11:26:22 PMI share the bafflement.  Didn't he actually dress as Woll's backup against FLA?  Doesn't the league look into any of this to see if the LTIR claim is legit?

Yes, he backed up Woll in the last two playoff games:
https://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20222023/ES030215.HTM
https://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20222023/ES030215.HTM
He apparently cleared his year end medical.
And in his year end press conference, he indicated the injury was behind him - as he did when he dressed to backup Woll and he claimed he was fine for summer training.

To go from that to "he's out for the season on LTIR" seems like a big stretch.

More likely, he's on LTIR to start the season to help them get under the cap because he claimed an injury that prevented them from buying him out.

He was allegedly out with a concussion.
He has a history of concussions.
All he has to say is "I feel a little wobbly from my concussion(s)"
How can anyone prove he's lying?

That little claim avoided him losing $2.67 mil next season in buyout savings (less what he would make in a contract elsewhere - I can't see him making that up this and next season with his injury history)

A month into the season, he could say "I feel better now" and the Leafs are screwed capwise. What bottom feeder wants to bury $6 mil (Leafs owe of his $8 mil total) in cash for a chronically injured 26GP 3.01GAA, .901 save% (stats playing for a decent defensive team) goalie? They have no cap space to retain any.

Trading Marleau's $4.25 mil salary to the Canes cost them a 1st rounder so trading Murray's $6 mil under desperate circumstances might get pretty crazy - well north of a 1st rounder?

In terms of the Leafs "agreeing" to LTIR, what choice did they have?
Brutally hard to trade him.
Can't buy him out with him claiming injury.
They're up against the cap.

The thing that makes me nervous: the assumption that a goalie who was cleared to play and dressed in the playoffs, cleared his year end medical, declared his injuries were behind him in the playoffs and at the year end press conference is suddenly done for the season. I sincerely doubt that is likely. The Leafs aren't claiming that - they're just saying he won't be ready to start the season by putting him on LTIR. If he comes back for a few games, he screws them up unless one of the big five is on LTIR.

Maybe they can keep him on LTIR for half a season and then dump the $3 mil left for less than a 1st rounder (they're not as desperate).

I doubt this was their original plan for Murray.