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Leafs to place Murray on LTIR

Started by CarltonTheBear, July 26, 2023, 11:10:29 AM

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bustaheims

Concussions can be tricky that way - especially when it comes to post-concussion syndrome. He might have felt fine for a few weeks - enough to get cleared to backup and pass a year-end physical - but suffered a major setback shortly after. As we've seen with many others in the past, once you've had a few concussions, it often doesn't take much to cause the next one or show how you didn't really recover from the last one.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

#31
Quote from: bustaheims on July 27, 2023, 08:10:32 AMConcussions can be tricky that way - especially when it comes to post-concussion syndrome. He might have felt fine for a few weeks - enough to get cleared to backup and pass a year-end physical - but suffered a major setback shortly after. As we've seen with many others in the past, once you've had a few concussions, it often doesn't take much to cause the next one or show how you didn't really recover from the last one.

Good point. And thanks cw for your reply.

I don't expect much from the league but I assume, maybe wrongly, that some league-appointed doc looks at situations like these and delivers an opinion as to the player's injury/"injury".  Now, I am aware that docs are reluctant to criticize or contradict other docs when the subject person is not their patient.  I guess there's all kinds of latitude at play here.

Bender

Just listening to Overdrive Frankie Corrado said both player and team basically have to arrive at this decision mutually. I really don't think Matt Murray, who's been constantly injured for years, would be amendable to go on LTIR to get his career back on track by doing proper rehabbing for a year only to decide mid-season that he's ok to play but also increase his chances of yet another injury by not taking the time necessary to let his body heal. This is probably the ideal scenario for everyone.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Frank E

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 27, 2023, 09:08:30 AM
Quote from: bustaheims on July 27, 2023, 08:10:32 AMConcussions can be tricky that way - especially when it comes to post-concussion syndrome. He might have felt fine for a few weeks - enough to get cleared to backup and pass a year-end physical - but suffered a major setback shortly after. As we've seen with many others in the past, once you've had a few concussions, it often doesn't take much to cause the next one or show how you didn't really recover from the last one.

Good point. And thanks cw for your reply.

I don't expect much from the league but I assume, maybe wrongly, that some league-appointed doc looks at situations like these and delivers an opinion as to the player's injury/"injury".  Now, I am aware that docs are reluctant to criticize or contradict other docs when the subject person is not their patient.  I guess there's all kinds of latitude at play here.

Add in substantial latitude for his concussion history.

CarltonTheBear

#34
Quote from: Michael on July 26, 2023, 04:07:51 PMI do not understand whether or not LTIR helps their cap situation on Day 1 or not. Some people talk about their need to be compliant on Day 1 and then only on Day 2 they can put Muzzin and Murray on LTIR.

First of all, is that true? And if true, how in the world could they manage to do that?

You can put players on LTIR during the summer, the Leafs actually needed to put Muzzin on LTIR right now otherwise they'd be over even the offseason salary cap (cap + 10%). And you don't need to be cap compliant on day 1 before putting players on LTIR. Otherwise like you said, teams would be kind of screwed.

The salary cap is currently $83.5mil. Murray and Muzzin's hits are combined $10.3mil. So the Leafs will want to build a starting roster that's as close to $93.8mil as possible, and then have M+M go on LTIR for the cap relief.

Michael

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2023, 09:49:29 AM
Quote from: Michael on July 26, 2023, 04:07:51 PMI do not understand whether or not LTIR helps their cap situation on Day 1 or not. Some people talk about their need to be compliant on Day 1 and then only on Day 2 they can put Muzzin and Murray on LTIR.

First of all, is that true? And if true, how in the world could they manage to do that?

You can put players on LTIR during the summer, the Leafs actually needed to put Muzzin on LTIR right now otherwise they'd be over even the offseason salary cap (cap + 10%). And you don't need to be cap compliant on day 1 before putting players on LTIR. Otherwise like you said, teams would be kind of screwed.

The salary cap is currently $83.5mil. Murray and Muzzin's hits are combined $10.3mil. So the Leafs will want to build a starting roster that's as close to $93.8mil as possible, and then have M+M go on LTIR for the cap relief.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Quote from: Michael on July 27, 2023, 09:56:55 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2023, 09:49:29 AM
Quote from: Michael on July 26, 2023, 04:07:51 PMI do not understand whether or not LTIR helps their cap situation on Day 1 or not. Some people talk about their need to be compliant on Day 1 and then only on Day 2 they can put Muzzin and Murray on LTIR.

First of all, is that true? And if true, how in the world could they manage to do that?

You can put players on LTIR during the summer, the Leafs actually needed to put Muzzin on LTIR right now otherwise they'd be over even the offseason salary cap (cap + 10%). And you don't need to be cap compliant on day 1 before putting players on LTIR. Otherwise like you said, teams would be kind of screwed.

The salary cap is currently $83.5mil. Murray and Muzzin's hits are combined $10.3mil. So the Leafs will want to build a starting roster that's as close to $93.8mil as possible, and then have M+M go on LTIR for the cap relief.

Thank you. Much appreciated.

CTB is actually Brandon Pridham.  There, I've outed him!

Zee

I hope he lets people know if he finds Lupul

CarltonTheBear

#38
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 26, 2023, 11:26:22 PMI share the bafflement.  Didn't he actually dress as Woll's backup against FLA?  Doesn't the league look into any of this to see if the LTIR claim is legit?

Carey Price and Shea Weber were both "cleared" to play in Montreal's 2021 Cup run and their careers were over afterward due to injuries. Ekblad and Montour were both "cleared" to play throughout Florida's Cup run despite having injuries for most of it that will keep them out for the start of this season. Tkachuk was "cleared" to play a game despite having a freaking broken sternum. Mark Stone was "cleared" to play coming directly off the LTIR for game 1 of the playoffs despite having basically a chronic injury that can have him back on LTIR at any given moment for the rest of his career.

I don't think we really need to act as if something might be fishy when a player with Matt Murray's long and detailed injury history gets placed on LTIR despite being "cleared" to sit on a bench for a game. The bar to be deemed "healthy" by a NHL doctor very obviously isn't all that high come playoff time. I was going to make a joke about how you basically just need to be able to put on your equipment but Tkachuk couldn't even do that when a doctor with a medical degree and everything said "yeah sure he's good to go".

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2023, 11:24:07 AM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 26, 2023, 11:26:22 PMI share the bafflement.  Didn't he actually dress as Woll's backup against FLA?  Doesn't the league look into any of this to see if the LTIR claim is legit?

Carey Price and Shea Weber were both "cleared" to play in Montreal's 2021 Cup run and their careers were over afterward due to injuries. Ekblad and Montour were both "cleared" to play throughout Florida's Cup run despite having injuries for most of it that will keep them out for the start of this season. Tkachuk was "cleared" to play a game despite having a freaking broken sternum. Mark Stone was "cleared" to play coming directly off the LTIR for game 1 of the playoffs despite having basically a chronic injury that can have him back on LTIR at any given moment for the rest of his career.

I don't think we really need to act as if something might be fishy when a player with Matt Murray's long and detailed injury history gets placed on LTIR despite being "cleared" to sit on a bench for a game. The bar to be deemed "healthy" by a NHL doctor very obviously isn't all that high come playoff time. I was going to make a joke about how you basically just need to be able to put on your equipment but Tkachuk couldn't even do that when a doctor with a medical degree and everything said "yeah sure he's good to go".

Maybe the AMA and whatever the Canadian equivalent need to investigate.  Sounds like malpractice to me.

cw

#40
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2023, 11:24:07 AMI don't think we really need to act as if something might be fishy when a player with Matt Murray's long and detailed injury history gets placed on LTIR despite being "cleared" to sit on a bench for a game. The bar to be deemed "healthy" by a NHL doctor very obviously isn't all that high come playoff time. I was going to make a joke about how you basically just need to be able to put on your equipment but Tkachuk couldn't even do that when a doctor with a medical degree and everything said "yeah sure he's good to go".

I don't think the placement of him on LTIR is "fishy". He has a lengthy history of injuries including multiple concussions. The player, the doctor(s) and the Leafs all must be in agreement to put him on LTIR. He had financial incentive to avoid a buyout and a health history that provided some justification if not 100% justification. They both had financial incentive for LTIR. It aligned with some of the leaks to the media.

As many know, to qualify for LTIR, a player must miss at least 10 NHL Games AND 24 days of the NHL season. That is all the two parties have agreed to.
In theory, Murray could come back as early as Nov 3rd, after game 10 and 24 days of the season.

None of that is fishy to me at all.

Murray didn't lose consciousness - I don't think he ever has. He wasn't hospitalized. He skated off the ice without assistance. He was back practicing 13 days later.
Those are not indications of a more serious concussion.
He does have a history of a number of concussions so there might be something from that. One of Murray's concussions in Pittsburgh, he didn't remove himself - played on. And then he came back after taking just one game off. So there is that history too. He's been a gamer and may have hurt himself.

It would be wonderful for the Leafs cap situation if he took the whole year off.
But the spirit of LTIR is that a player is off until they're able to resume play.

The iffy (not fishy) part to me is the presumption that he's on LTIR for the entire season. It is possible. But I think that presumption is very premature given he practiced for weeks during the playoffs, dressed for the playoffs, appears to have cleared his end of season medical and his declarations during the playoffs and end of season press conference that he felt good and was looking forward to a summer of training.

herman

This has amounted to the best possible outcome for the Leafs cap situation regarding Murray.

A trade would have cost assets.
A buyout would have cost some cap space today and more next year.

The two sides mutually agreed to it, the league has approved it, and the Leafs, already in LTIR, just have to LTIR more.
#27

Kaberle15

Murray is a brilliant Goalie, to bad he can't be healthy.

All the Robida's island jokes asside, hope he can stay healthy.
Go Leafs Go!!!

L K

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 27, 2023, 12:12:57 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on July 27, 2023, 11:24:07 AM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 26, 2023, 11:26:22 PMI share the bafflement.  Didn't he actually dress as Woll's backup against FLA?  Doesn't the league look into any of this to see if the LTIR claim is legit?

Carey Price and Shea Weber were both "cleared" to play in Montreal's 2021 Cup run and their careers were over afterward due to injuries. Ekblad and Montour were both "cleared" to play throughout Florida's Cup run despite having injuries for most of it that will keep them out for the start of this season. Tkachuk was "cleared" to play a game despite having a freaking broken sternum. Mark Stone was "cleared" to play coming directly off the LTIR for game 1 of the playoffs despite having basically a chronic injury that can have him back on LTIR at any given moment for the rest of his career.

I don't think we really need to act as if something might be fishy when a player with Matt Murray's long and detailed injury history gets placed on LTIR despite being "cleared" to sit on a bench for a game. The bar to be deemed "healthy" by a NHL doctor very obviously isn't all that high come playoff time. I was going to make a joke about how you basically just need to be able to put on your equipment but Tkachuk couldn't even do that when a doctor with a medical degree and everything said "yeah sure he's good to go".

Maybe the AMA and whatever the Canadian equivalent need to investigate.  Sounds like malpractice to me.

I don't do professional team sports but I have done some high level MMA and University sports medical exams.  Clearance to play isn't always about healthy but just safe to play without making an injury worse.  Concussions will never get that kind of clearance today (particularly in combat sports that actually have fantastic restrictions on getting cleared after a head injury) but with things like back injuries, knee injuries.  The end result of playing might be the same whether they play or not.  If the decision is that they can't necessarily make the injury worse, you can still get cleared to play despite the risk that you could shift from needing the surgery 2 weeks into the offseason instead of tomorrow.