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What are they worth?

Started by hobarth, July 03, 2023, 03:36:31 PM

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louisstamos

Quote from: hobarth on July 03, 2023, 11:42:36 PMSince they are hockey players and should be paid based on their accomplishments as hockey players

Matthews has a Calder, two Rockets, a Hart and a Ted Lindsay, which means he was voted as the best player in the league in 2021-22 *by his peers*.

Regardless of what he gets, he'll be worth it.

Bullfrog

Hobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Treliving answered this question already.  It's hard to get good hockey players.  REALLY hard.  The core 4 are really good hockey players.  Getting rid of them will make the team worse and reduce our chances of winning a cup.  So you pay them the going market rate.

End of story.

cw

Is there any Cup winning roster that any of the core 4 couldn't crack?
None that I can think of.

Are any of them grossly out of line with what they're currently paid?
I don't think so.

You might debate Tavares but when he was a UFA, a bunch of teams would have given him that deal to sign him.

The issue is closer to how do they surround these players with enough talent to win a Cup.
Maybe one of them will get flipped to free up dollars for the D, for example. But I'm not sure they're at that point and it would depend on what they're getting back.

The notion that the core 4 needs to be broken up simply because of the team results to date seems flawed. To me, it is a core 5 anyway. I look back to '67 and can't recall many, if any, seasons with a core 5 like they've got right now. If the goaltending holds up and they can land some physical D that can PK, they've got another good shot next spring. Those are significant IFs but they're not in a bad place right now.

hobarth

Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:21:04 AMHobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

hobarth

Quote from: cw on July 04, 2023, 09:55:30 AMIs there any Cup winning roster that any of the core 4 couldn't crack?
None that I can think of.

Are any of them grossly out of line with what they're currently paid?
I don't think so.

You might debate Tavares but when he was a UFA, a bunch of teams would have given him that deal to sign him.

The issue is closer to how do they surround these players with enough talent to win a Cup.
Maybe one of them will get flipped to free up dollars for the D, for example. But I'm not sure they're at that point and it would depend on what they're getting back.

The notion that the core 4 needs to be broken up simply because of the team results to date seems flawed. To me, it is a core 5 anyway. I look back to '67 and can't recall many, if any, seasons with a core 5 like they've got right now. If the goaltending holds up and they can land some physical D that can PK, they've got another good shot next spring. Those are significant IFs but they're not in a bad place right now.

I agree TO has a core 5, Rielly being another member of this select group.

The team in '67 didn't have a core 4/5, what they had was depth and a willingness to compete which I feel TO's core 4/5 is missing.

What you're asking for requires $s and because the core 4/5 is so well paid there isn't enough $s to properly acquire decent depth.

Another way of looking at the original intent of this thread might be What Are They Worth as a core, $47 mil. now and far more in the very near future means to me that TO will probably miss out on what should've have been a prime opportunity to be Cup competitive. The talent is there but I think the character is missing. This reminds me of Kessel, it was always mentioned that he wasn't a winner and therefore not worth the $8 mil. he was being paid. He gets traded to Pitts. and was being given serious consideration as Pitts' MVP in their first Cup win.

7 chances to prove their value, I can't say that I have been impressed by any of this core in the playoffs, they have not been good enough to overcome TO's depth problem so together they aren't worth what they're paid, that might change on different teams like the transformation of Kessel years ago.

Separated they might become worthy of their remuneration.

Bullfrog

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 09:00:32 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:21:04 AMHobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

You definitely didn't answer it. It's a yes/no question. He's almost universally appreciated as one of the greatest goal-scorers ever; certainly of the last 20 years.

What's that player worth? Whatever he asks for, that's what.

So, Matthews, who's pretty much a PPG player in the playoffs is not as good of a play-off performer based on Eichel's one playoff run?

In all honesty, and I mean no offense, it sounds like you're searching for reasons to justify why the leafs players aren't worth what they're paid. Matthews got votes for the Selke last year.

hobarth

Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:39:44 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 09:00:32 PM
Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 09:21:04 AMHobarth, let me ask you a straight-forward question: do you believe Matthews is one of the best goal-scorers of all time?

Strange as it might seem I'm a Leaf fan, when and if I watch other games I look for how other players compare in relation to my Leafs.

Matthews is a great regular season goal scorer but I have always preferred Eichel's game in the regular season to Matthews. For me Matthews should be a winger, he's never appealed to me as a center but he is productive. Until this year I could never compare Eichel's playoff game to Matthews', I think Eichel trumps Matthews in the playoffs as well.
Eichel is paid $10 mil. and I think he is a better player than Matthews, Eichel can score and set up plays. I think Matthews definitely needs Marner/Nylander to facilitate his goal scoring and offensive stats.

Being a great regular season scorer is great but not being able to bring that skill to the playoffs definitely diminishes Matthews' standing in the realms of all time scoring.

I don't know if I answered your question as directly as you requested, being straight forward with a simple yes he's a great scorer would suggest I therefore also think he's a great player/person which isn't what I feel about him.

You definitely didn't answer it. It's a yes/no question. He's almost universally appreciated as one of the greatest goal-scorers ever; certainly of the last 20 years.

What's that player worth? Whatever he asks for, that's what.

So, Matthews, who's pretty much a PPG player in the playoffs is not as good of a play-off performer based on Eichel's one playoff run?

In all honesty, and I mean no offense, it sounds like you're searching for reasons to justify why the leafs players aren't worth what they're paid. Matthews got votes for the Selke last year.

So what you're saying, I assume, is that Matthews can go his entire career, never win a Cup, not even come close but still deserves to be considered a great all situations goal scorer and be able to dictate what his contracts should be?

TO be dammed, right now he can ask for $16 mil. per and you're alright with that, that's what being a fan is all about, blind faith.

There's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

When I see Matthews being awarded trophies, it reminds me of figure skating/diving competitions when the obvious best person doesn't win for whatever reason, McDavid is the best forward in the NHL and should win all awards that his talent deserves, Matthews is in the top 5 but the gap between him and McDavid is huge. I think McDavid felt insulted last year and was definitely out to prove that he is the only player that should be getting serious consideration for any award he could be awarded, I think he's proved his point.

PPG in the playoffs is good, great even, but not so much when most of those points are collected at the beginning of series and Matthews' contributions diminish when they're needed most, when TO needs to finish. I'm not saying that Matthews is the sole reason for TO's failures but I do say that he shouldn't be paid like a super hero until he is one, for the money he's made he should be able to put the Leafs on his shoulders and carry them far further than he has to date. 

I find it strange that a player that doesn't PK would be considered for a Selke, don't you?

Your insistence on a simple yes/no answer is very Judge Judy, this isn't a court, it's a forum.

Bullfrog

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMSo what you're saying, I assume, is that Matthews can go his entire career, never win a Cup, not even come close but still deserves to be considered a great all situations goal scorer and be able to dictate what his contracts should be?

TO be dammed, right now he can ask for $16 mil. per and you're alright with that, that's what being a fan is all about, blind faith.

More-or-less, yes. Team accomplishments really have nothing to do with determining his worth as an individual. Are you saying that McDavid won't be considered one of the best players to ever wear skates if the Oilers don't win the cup?

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMThere's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

That's not an award. So, I don't even know how to respond.

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMWhen I see Matthews being awarded trophies, it reminds me of figure skating/diving competitions when the obvious best person doesn't win for whatever reason, McDavid is the best forward in the NHL and should win all awards that his talent deserves, Matthews is in the top 5 but the gap between him and McDavid is huge. I think McDavid felt insulted last year and was definitely out to prove that he is the only player that should be getting serious consideration for any award he could be awarded, I think he's proved his point.
When Matthews won the award, he was top 10 in points (only 15 behind McDavid) and scored 16 more goals than McDavid in fewer games (he was 2nd in league PPG) while also being a better all-around player. So, I mean, good for McDavid for proving his point?


Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMI find it strange that a player that doesn't PK would be considered for a Selke, don't you?

No. I don't.

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMYour insistence on a simple yes/no answer is very Judge Judy, this isn't a court, it's a forum.

Judge Judy? It was a simple yes/no question. You're certainly welcome to elaborate on your answer.

louisstamos

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMThere's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

Bullfrog

Quote from: louisstamos on July 04, 2023, 10:31:39 PMIf your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

Unlike Eichel, he didn't single-handedly carry the team on his shoulders, score every goal, win every fight, cure COVID, or end racism.

hobarth

Quote from: Bullfrog on July 04, 2023, 10:36:48 PM
Quote from: louisstamos on July 04, 2023, 10:31:39 PMIf your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

Unlike Eichel, he didn't single-handedly carry the team on his shoulders, score every goal, win every fight, cure COVID, or end racism.

And he never will when he's the top paid player in the NHL.

Maybe Maroon shouldn't be the highest paid player in the NHL but there are a lot of highly paid players that probably considered the impact of their contract demands that allowed him to be on their teams. I guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.

louisstamos

Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:55:18 PMI guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.

Except that according to the reports out there, Matthews is willing to take a lower AAV on a shorter deal in order ensure that the team is more competitive around him.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/maple-leafs-auston-matthews-would-consider-taking-less-money-151004985.html

But I guess that doesn't fit your narrative.

azzurri63

There's no debating M&M are top players in the league. Matthews in my opinion worth more because of the position he plays. He's better than Eichel in my opinion. The beef I have with them is they can't seem to handle playoff hockey. Players elevate their games come playoff and you have to that's what it takes to win. Reilly does that pretty well every year whereas M&M disappear. Elite players like McDavid, MacKinnon etc may not put up points every single game but you notice them every game and for the most part every shift. I keep thinking to game 3 of the Florida series and both really piss*d me off as they completely mailed it in. Salaries keep going up that's the reality of all sports but personally I don't think either deserves more than what they are getting. They haven't shown up in the playoffs to warrant any substantial raises and their greed is hurting to try and fill out the roster with any meaningful upgrades. Reilly took less why can't the greedy 3 do the same? Until they do we are in this dilemma until Tavares is done. maybe that's managements thinking pay them what they want we'll hurt until that day comes with JT off the books and the cap rising.