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What are they worth?

Started by hobarth, July 03, 2023, 03:36:31 PM

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Nik

Quote from: louisstamos on July 04, 2023, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMThere's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

There's an old expression I like. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into". You're looking for logic and consistency where none exists. The entire argument is "The guys on the Leafs can't win a cup because they haven't won a cup". It's just meaningless drivel at this point repeated ad nauseum.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Highlander

Quote from: Nik on July 05, 2023, 12:53:28 AM
Quote from: louisstamos on July 04, 2023, 10:31:39 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:18:05 PMThere's only one award that means anything to me and it's totally based on merit, the Cup.

If your argument is players should be paid based on their ability to win the cup, since it's "the only award that means anything" to you, why isn't Patrick Maroon the highest paid player in the league?

There's an old expression I like. "You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into". You're looking for logic and consistency where none exists. The entire argument is "The guys on the Leafs can't win a cup because they haven't won a cup". It's just meaningless drivel at this point repeated ad nauseum.
How true!
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki

hobarth

Quote from: louisstamos on July 04, 2023, 11:15:20 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 04, 2023, 10:55:18 PMI guess that's not totally fair to Matthews, he did and probably will continue to have considerations about his contract demands, unfortunately for us his only considerations will probably be of himself.

Except that according to the reports out there, Matthews is willing to take a lower AAV on a shorter deal in order ensure that the team is more competitive around him.

https://ca.sports.yahoo.com/news/maple-leafs-auston-matthews-would-consider-taking-less-money-151004985.html

But I guess that doesn't fit your narrative.

My understanding from the media is that TO is observing total silence on any Leaf issue, I haven't read the article you've referred to but there is little to no credible info about the Leafs, especially in regards to contract specifics.
Servalli is a credible source I'd say but I'd like to know where he got this info from. I don't know why people think that any of this is my narrative, I simply have stated what I've seen, AM & MM are paid over $10. mil per, I can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Like I've said and I guess I need to again, I don't think any of TO's core 4 is overpaid, I think they as a group are overpaid and shouldn't receive pay raises until they provide better results at all times, especially during the playoffs. When players like TO's core 4 are so well paid they need to be accountable every game, every shift, at all times, they're paid like they're generational players, pretty well as good as McDavid, then they need to be McDavids, anything less at all times isn't acceptable.

JT has earned his pay, he should've been paid as well as he is now while he was with the NYI but most teams will pay their better players based on what they've done in the past with some idea that they can still be productive in the future, JT matches all of these criteria.

I felt thru most of the Florida series that AM & MM were missing in action, I mostly noticed MM when he was PKing but you know penalty killers generally don't get hit or roughed up, that's the types of games/scenarios that both MM & AM thrive, we've seen that year after year, playoff game after playoff game, maybe they can be supported by the right types of players that will enable them to play at the level commensurate of their pay but they get paid so much that that type of support is fiscally out of TO's reach. These guys should be far better on the PP but neither would go anywhere close to the opposition's net even tho the success rate of TO's PP during the playoffs left a lot to be desired, they needed to get into the trenches for TO to have any chance to win, they didn't and hadn't in previous years.

Is the code of silence that envelops the Leafs for real, Klingberg's, Bertuzzi's and Domi's signings were mostly a total surprise to us and the media, the legend of LL still permeates the Leaf's organization.

Joe

I'm convinced you live in an alternate timeline and some fracture in the time space continuum has you accessing our reality but you are not aware that you've crossed over.

It's the only logical conclusion I can come to reading whatever it is you put together.

Deebo

The Leafs interest in Reaves, Bertuzzi, and Domi were all reported well before the signings.

OldTimeHockey

#35
Quote from: hobarth on July 05, 2023, 05:58:56 PMI can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?





Joe

Quote from: OldTimeHockey on July 05, 2023, 07:47:58 PMLike seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?



Win a cup, by himself, 1 vs 5, hulk hogan style.

Nik

Quote from: hobarth on July 05, 2023, 05:58:56 PMWhen players like TO's core 4 are so well paid they need to be accountable every game, every shift, at all times, they're paid like they're generational players, pretty well as good as McDavid, then they need to be McDavids, anything less at all times isn't acceptable.

Nylander makes less than 7 million per year. Anyone who then thinks Connor McDavid is a reasonable standard to compare him to is, plainly, a lunatic.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

cw

Quote from: OldTimeHockey on July 05, 2023, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 05, 2023, 05:58:56 PMI can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Maybe it is due to age. Maybe it is due to not watching as much as I used to due to other things in my life. I'm not sure. I do not have the same emotional attachment to this group as some in the past. Keon, Sittler, Gilmour & Sundin's teams ... I felt more attached. But that is not a knock on this group. My priorities have changed due to those around me. I'm a little more cold blooded looking at this team.

It is through that lens I can say I have a hunk of respect for this core 5 and therefore, more time and patience. As a group (with Nylander head space not 100% on board), they have embraced trying to play in both ends of the rink. They deserve some real credit for that. They're the biggest reason the team defense improved in my opinion. They led by example. They finished their checks. They took their man after the draw. They backchecked. They hit. They blocked shots. They played in position and attempted to maintain good gaps within their system. They tried to take care of the puck. They won draws, etc. Compared to the Leafs teams of the last five-six decades, at the very least, this core 5 have made a credible effort in that regard - roughly as good as any I can recall.

So Auston Matthews does all that stuff and while he's doing it, he maintains the highest goals per game in the Leafs 100 plus years of existence (while in a scoring era that is not crazy high like the 70s and 80s) and one of the highest goals per game in NHL history. And his ppg in the playoffs is top 10 or so over the last 5 years. What more can you ask of the guy? He's a generational hockey talent. One of the finest to put on a Leafs jersey. Period. How can we be debating this?

Citing Eichel's one playoff run in 8 years in the league when Matthews has helped his team make the playoffs 7 years running reminds me of John Druce's 14 goals in 15 games in 1990 for the Caps (or whatever it was). It's like cherry picking stats.

Citing the '67 Leafs as a better model with depth seems wacky to me as well. 37% of that team was 36 or older. Keon, Mahovlich & Pulford (I've never regarded Bob as a true HoFer - didn't crack a 1st-2nd All Star team) were the only HoFers under the age of 36. All Habs & Hawks were under the age of 36 except Habs 37 year old backup goalie Worsley) The Leafs were a .535 win% club that committed sports larceny - not a model of a well built franchise at that time. It was the scraps of the early 60s Leafs team that cobbled together a couple of playoff rounds with some old guys to steal it. Chicago, Montreal & Detroit had more current stars of the league. To me, Montreal should have won it (Habs won Cups the two years before and the two years after). We were ecstatic that Montreal had to "borrow" the Cup for Expo '67.

This team is once again a favorite of the bookies to win a Cup next year. Crudely, they have about a 10% chance - which is better than most seasons over the past 50 years or so. As they are presently constructed, I do not think they're as good as the roster that lost to Florida. But it is a work in progress. They have to fix the dmen talent, etc. They wouldn't have that good of a shot without the core 5 and Auston Matthews.

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Quote from: cw on July 05, 2023, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on July 05, 2023, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 05, 2023, 05:58:56 PMI can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Maybe it is due to age. Maybe it is due to not watching as much as I used to due to other things in my life. I'm not sure. I do not have the same emotional attachment to this group as some in the past. Keon, Sittler, Gilmour & Sundin's teams ... I felt more attached. But that is not a knock on this group. My priorities have changed due to those around me. I'm a little more cold blooded looking at this team.

It is through that lens I can say I have a hunk of respect for this core 5 and therefore, more time and patience. As a group (with Nylander head space not 100% on board), they have embraced trying to play in both ends of the rink. They deserve some real credit for that. They're the biggest reason the team defense improved in my opinion. They led by example. They finished their checks. They took their man after the draw. They backchecked. They hit. They blocked shots. They played in position and attempted to maintain good gaps within their system. They tried to take care of the puck. They won draws, etc. Compared to the Leafs teams of the last five-six decades, at the very least, this core 5 have made a credible effort in that regard - roughly as good as any I can recall.

So Auston Matthews does all that stuff and while he's doing it, he maintains the highest goals per game in the Leafs 100 plus years of existence (while in a scoring era that is not crazy high like the 70s and 80s) and one of the highest goals per game in NHL history. And his ppg in the playoffs is top 10 or so over the last 5 years. What more can you ask of the guy? He's a generational hockey talent. One of the finest to put on a Leafs jersey. Period. How can we be debating this?

Citing Eichel's one playoff run in 8 years in the league when Matthews has helped his team make the playoffs 7 years running reminds me of John Druce's 14 goals in 15 games in 1990 for the Caps (or whatever it was). It's like cherry picking stats.

Citing the '67 Leafs as a better model with depth seems wacky to me as well. 37% of that team was 36 or older. Keon, Mahovlich & Pulford (I've never regarded Bob as a true HoFer - didn't crack a 1st-2nd All Star team) were the only HoFers under the age of 36. All Habs & Hawks were under the age of 36 except Habs 37 year old backup goalie Worsley) The Leafs were a .535 win% club that committed sports larceny - not a model of a well built franchise at that time. It was the scraps of the early 60s Leafs team that cobbled together a couple of playoff rounds with some old guys to steal it. Chicago, Montreal & Detroit had more current stars of the league. To me, Montreal should have won it (Habs won Cups the two years before and the two years after). We were ecstatic that Montreal had to "borrow" the Cup for Expo '67.

This team is once again a favorite of the bookies to win a Cup next year. Crudely, they have about a 10% chance - which is better than most seasons over the past 50 years or so. As they are presently constructed, I do not think they're as good as the roster that lost to Florida. But it is a work in progress. They have to fix the dmen talent, etc. They wouldn't have that good of a shot without the core 5 and Auston Matthews.

Great post, cw.  I mean, really great stuff.  Thx for the perspective.

Rob

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on July 05, 2023, 10:51:06 PM
Quote from: cw on July 05, 2023, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on July 05, 2023, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 05, 2023, 05:58:56 PMI can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Maybe it is due to age. Maybe it is due to not watching as much as I used to due to other things in my life. I'm not sure. I do not have the same emotional attachment to this group as some in the past. Keon, Sittler, Gilmour & Sundin's teams ... I felt more attached. But that is not a knock on this group. My priorities have changed due to those around me. I'm a little more cold blooded looking at this team.

It is through that lens I can say I have a hunk of respect for this core 5 and therefore, more time and patience. As a group (with Nylander head space not 100% on board), they have embraced trying to play in both ends of the rink. They deserve some real credit for that. They're the biggest reason the team defense improved in my opinion. They led by example. They finished their checks. They took their man after the draw. They backchecked. They hit. They blocked shots. They played in position and attempted to maintain good gaps within their system. They tried to take care of the puck. They won draws, etc. Compared to the Leafs teams of the last five-six decades, at the very least, this core 5 have made a credible effort in that regard - roughly as good as any I can recall.

So Auston Matthews does all that stuff and while he's doing it, he maintains the highest goals per game in the Leafs 100 plus years of existence (while in a scoring era that is not crazy high like the 70s and 80s) and one of the highest goals per game in NHL history. And his ppg in the playoffs is top 10 or so over the last 5 years. What more can you ask of the guy? He's a generational hockey talent. One of the finest to put on a Leafs jersey. Period. How can we be debating this?

Citing Eichel's one playoff run in 8 years in the league when Matthews has helped his team make the playoffs 7 years running reminds me of John Druce's 14 goals in 15 games in 1990 for the Caps (or whatever it was). It's like cherry picking stats.

Citing the '67 Leafs as a better model with depth seems wacky to me as well. 37% of that team was 36 or older. Keon, Mahovlich & Pulford (I've never regarded Bob as a true HoFer - didn't crack a 1st-2nd All Star team) were the only HoFers under the age of 36. All Habs & Hawks were under the age of 36 except Habs 37 year old backup goalie Worsley) The Leafs were a .535 win% club that committed sports larceny - not a model of a well built franchise at that time. It was the scraps of the early 60s Leafs team that cobbled together a couple of playoff rounds with some old guys to steal it. Chicago, Montreal & Detroit had more current stars of the league. To me, Montreal should have won it (Habs won Cups the two years before and the two years after). We were ecstatic that Montreal had to "borrow" the Cup for Expo '67.

This team is once again a favorite of the bookies to win a Cup next year. Crudely, they have about a 10% chance - which is better than most seasons over the past 50 years or so. As they are presently constructed, I do not think they're as good as the roster that lost to Florida. But it is a work in progress. They have to fix the dmen talent, etc. They wouldn't have that good of a shot without the core 5 and Auston Matthews.

Great post, cw.  I mean, really great stuff.  Thx for the perspective.

Yes, I will second that.  We REALLY REALLY missed you around here CW, so glad you are posting again.

OldTimeHockey

Quote from: cw on July 05, 2023, 09:48:03 PM
Quote from: OldTimeHockey on July 05, 2023, 07:47:58 PM
Quote from: hobarth on July 05, 2023, 05:58:56 PMI can't think of another player that is getting so well paid at such an early time in their careers without better personal/team results.

Auston Matthews is one year removed from a 60 goal season.
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning back 2 back Maurice Richard Trophies
Auston Matthews is one year removed from winning the Hart Trophy for NHL MVP
Auston Matthews is one year removed from being voted the MVP by his peers
Since 2016 Auston Matthews leads the league in goals. He has 12 more goals than Connor McDavid in 43 less games  in that time frame. That's good for 0.62 gpg. McDavid sits at 0.54

Only Mike Bossy, Mario Lemieux, Cy Denneny, Babe Dye and Pavel Bure have a higher GPG rate than Auston Matthews

Like seriously, what else can he do "personally" in his young career to prove he deserves to get paid?!?

Maybe it is due to age. Maybe it is due to not watching as much as I used to due to other things in my life. I'm not sure. I do not have the same emotional attachment to this group as some in the past. Keon, Sittler, Gilmour & Sundin's teams ... I felt more attached. But that is not a knock on this group. My priorities have changed due to those around me. I'm a little more cold blooded looking at this team.

It is through that lens I can say I have a hunk of respect for this core 5 and therefore, more time and patience. As a group (with Nylander head space not 100% on board), they have embraced trying to play in both ends of the rink. They deserve some real credit for that. They're the biggest reason the team defense improved in my opinion. They led by example. They finished their checks. They took their man after the draw. They backchecked. They hit. They blocked shots. They played in position and attempted to maintain good gaps within their system. They tried to take care of the puck. They won draws, etc. Compared to the Leafs teams of the last five-six decades, at the very least, this core 5 have made a credible effort in that regard - roughly as good as any I can recall.

So Auston Matthews does all that stuff and while he's doing it, he maintains the highest goals per game in the Leafs 100 plus years of existence (while in a scoring era that is not crazy high like the 70s and 80s) and one of the highest goals per game in NHL history. And his ppg in the playoffs is top 10 or so over the last 5 years. What more can you ask of the guy? He's a generational hockey talent. One of the finest to put on a Leafs jersey. Period. How can we be debating this?

Citing Eichel's one playoff run in 8 years in the league when Matthews has helped his team make the playoffs 7 years running reminds me of John Druce's 14 goals in 15 games in 1990 for the Caps (or whatever it was). It's like cherry picking stats.

Citing the '67 Leafs as a better model with depth seems wacky to me as well. 37% of that team was 36 or older. Keon, Mahovlich & Pulford (I've never regarded Bob as a true HoFer - didn't crack a 1st-2nd All Star team) were the only HoFers under the age of 36. All Habs & Hawks were under the age of 36 except Habs 37 year old backup goalie Worsley) The Leafs were a .535 win% club that committed sports larceny - not a model of a well built franchise at that time. It was the scraps of the early 60s Leafs team that cobbled together a couple of playoff rounds with some old guys to steal it. Chicago, Montreal & Detroit had more current stars of the league. To me, Montreal should have won it (Habs won Cups the two years before and the two years after). We were ecstatic that Montreal had to "borrow" the Cup for Expo '67.

This team is once again a favorite of the bookies to win a Cup next year. Crudely, they have about a 10% chance - which is better than most seasons over the past 50 years or so. As they are presently constructed, I do not think they're as good as the roster that lost to Florida. But it is a work in progress. They have to fix the dmen talent, etc. They wouldn't have that good of a shot without the core 5 and Auston Matthews.

I will second that. I was certainly more attached to the stars when I was younger as well. Clark, Vaive, Salming, etc. Look at all the playoff success they led the Leafs to.

Well written CW.

GuyRobinson

Quote from: Highlander on July 03, 2023, 04:54:03 PMThose frikkers probably look across the Lake and salivate.

As they sit in the stadium and watch the Bills play NFL football.
 

cabber24

For Nylander I will take the DeBrincat contract. Am I wrong? Is there a rule somewhere that Toronto has to pay more than anyone else? Both right-wingers with almost the exact same Points/Game career totals.

Maybe you can argue what have you done for me lately but the counter would be I did it twice (+40 goals).
Upon the wicked He will rain Jerseys; blue and white and burning waffles will be the portion of their cup.

CarltonTheBear

Quote from: cabber24 on July 12, 2023, 12:20:46 PMFor Nylander I will take the DeBrincat contract. Am I wrong? Is there a rule somewhere that Toronto has to pay more than anyone else? Both right-wingers with almost the exact same Points/Game career totals.

Maybe you can argue what have you done for me lately but the counter would be I did it twice (+40 goals).

Last season
Nylander: 82 GP, 40 G, 87 Pts, 1.06 PPG
DeBrincat: 82 GP, 27 G, 66 Pts, 0.80 PPG

Last 2 seasons
Nylander: 163 GP, 73 G, 167 Pts, 1.02 PPG
DeBrincat: 164 GP, 68 G, 144 Pts, 0.88 PPG

Last 3 seasons
Nylander: 214 GP, 91 G, 209 Pts, 0.98 PPG
DeBrincat: 216 GP, 100 G, 200 Pts, 0.93 PPG

Not gonna lie I didn't expect DeBrincat to have more goals than him over the past 3 seasons but contract negotiations typically look most closely at the last 1 or 2 seasons and what the player can do going forward based off that. And in that regard Nylander has the pretty clear edge.