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Kyle Dubas named Penguins President of Hockey Ops

Started by Arn, June 01, 2023, 09:36:54 AM

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L K

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 01, 2023, 12:22:27 PM
Quote from: Peter D. on June 01, 2023, 12:17:30 PMQuite bluntly, the way this entire situation has played out from all parties involved, Dubas comes out looking like a conniving little b!tch.

Well, I wouldn't use that term but what happened to "I absolutely wouldn't take any other job right now"?

Honestly, that fateful press conference he gave was a disaster.  To me, he doesn't come out of all this as a guy who's fully mature, despite his being savvy in so many ways.

I got the impression that he was speaking more about being GM.  I think the President role is a different matter altogether.  He's likely not travelling as much in that role.  He's not going with the team on road trips in a way that he has as the GM.  So while I don't really view his comments as tactful, I think the whole situation was a bit different.  I do think the firing played a bit of a role too.  The team and organization didn't agree to part ways in the end.  Shanahan fired him.  Whether it was the right decision to do so or not is a different discussion but I'm sure that impacted where his decisions were going to sit.

Ultimately I think everyone looks bad coming out of this.

CarltonTheBear

This one's not that deep.

At the time he only saw two options for himself: Leafs or take a step back. Dubas decided against the option to take a step back, and then Shanahan/MLSE took away the Leafs option. To think that he's then not allowed to look at a 3rd option at that point is bizarre.


Arn

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 01, 2023, 12:38:48 PMI'm not getting into who's right or wrong because a) there probably isn't a 100% correct answer to that and b) if there was we'll never all all the information to make that call but it's pretty wild how people can come to such drastically different conclusions on what happened that fateful week based on the same set of information everyone got.

I feel like you can split the line of who believes what pretty much either side of the line aligned with what kind of job you thought he was doing as GM
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

herman

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 01, 2023, 02:13:10 PMThis one's not that deep.

At the time he only saw two options for himself: Leafs or take a step back. Dubas decided against the option to take a step back, and then Shanahan/MLSE took away the Leafs option. To think that he's then not allowed to look at a 3rd option at that point is bizarre.



https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/06/01/new-pittsburgh-penguins-president-kyle-dubas-reflects-on-his-final-press-conference-with-the-leafs/
QuoteIn your final press conference with Toronto, you expressed how difficult of a season it was on you and your family. Why was this the right opportunity?

Dubas: It was [difficult]. Maybe I was too honest that day about how I was feeling at that exact moment. But it is in the past.

When we came to the last day — Friday, the 19th — and got home the next day, we get inundated with calls and texts. People want to come over to the house. It is nice, but it is also sad.

Very early the next morning, I was on the phone with one of our staff there. I had a 647 area code call. It was a message from Sam [Kennedy] who told me that they had permission from Toronto. My initial inkling was that we needed to take a breath before we entertained other options. That was our intention at the beginning of the week.

My wife, later in the day, said, "I think you should go and at least meet with them. If they are great people, they have a long-term view of the organization, and it is going to be a great fit for you in terms of what everyone is about that you are going to work for and with, and the staff has a great feel, we are going to be moving anyway now."

Our kids are going to be 6 and 2. Leo will be in Grade 1 next year. Shannon's view was that if we are going to move, we might as well move now before the kids are too entrenched. That was a first step.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Guilt Trip

Good on Kyle and I wish him nothing but the best. I've said it before, he's a quality human being first and foremost and I like the direction he's taken the Leafs. It's really too bad they couldn't get over the hump.

Nik


Good for him. i never got the sense he was someone to shrink from a challenge and I think Pittsburgh post-CrosKin will provide him with the opportunity to remake the organization in his image in a way that probably wasn't available in Toronto. As people have pointed out there's maybe 1 or at most 2 years to maybe try and orchestrate a last hurrah there but then it's right back to rebuilding. Hopefully he'll try and get it right this time.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bender

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 01, 2023, 02:13:10 PMThis one's not that deep.

At the time he only saw two options for himself: Leafs or take a step back. Dubas decided against the option to take a step back, and then Shanahan/MLSE took away the Leafs option. To think that he's then not allowed to look at a 3rd option at that point is bizarre.



I don't know to what degree people said he wasn't "allowed" but I can easily see why it's bad optics to many.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

cw

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 01, 2023, 12:22:27 PM
Quote from: Peter D. on June 01, 2023, 12:17:30 PMQuite bluntly, the way this entire situation has played out from all parties involved, Dubas comes out looking like a conniving little b!tch.

Well, I wouldn't use that term but what happened to "I absolutely wouldn't take any other job right now"?

During his press conference with the Pens, he said that his wife thought that he should at least talk with Pittsburgh and Fenway after they called as they're a good city and organization. His oldest child is about to start grade one. As they were going to have to move to another city eventually, his wife felt they might as well get it done now to reduce turmoil on his kids. His wife and kids flew down and the Pens did a major effort to show them around the city to get the=m comfortable, etc.

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on June 01, 2023, 12:22:27 PMHonestly, that fateful press conference he gave was a disaster.  To me, he doesn't come out of all this as a guy who's fully mature, despite his being savvy in so many ways.

I also feel he is not the most mature person.


Fact: Both Shanahan and Dubas agreed he had an offer to renew from the Leafs as of his Monday year end press conference.

Fact: By the following Friday, both Shanahan and Dubas agreed that Leafs withdrew that offer.

Fact: During the Pens press conference, Dubas suggested that he was "too honest" during his final press conference with the Leafs - an admission of an error on his part.

Claim: According to Shanahan, when Dubas & he discussed the situation the Wednesday after the press conference, he was left with more questions than answers (which would erode confidence in Dubas). The next day, Dubas' agent asked for significantly more money as Dubas emailed that he wanted to return as Leafs GM.

In order for the Leafs to withdraw their offer, Dubas had top have done something to put Shanahan and/or MLSE off.

Good faith negotiations theoretically start with the parties some distance apart. As they negotiate, which Shanahan claimed had been going on with Dubas' agent for a couple of months, they get to understand the other side's position, etc and then tend to move towards a compromise between the two positions. To bump the dollars substantially further apart or raise new substantial issues at a late stage could be construed as not good faith negotiations. They should have been on the table much sooner.

Shanahan maintained money was not the key issue. Something else bothered him.

Media reports were that Dubas wanted more power that either cut Shanahan out or increased Dubas' decision making authority over the hockey team (probably at the expense of Shanahan).

Media reports and statements were that the Pens wanted to find a GM first. Then they would double back and add a President. Penguins trying to sign Dubas, change course and offer him more authority as President and interim GM - which corroborates the Toronto media reports of Dubas' desire for more decision making power to some considerable extent.

There is a common protocol in business: when a senior manager asks for something significant and they're turned down, it can be like a vote of non-confidence in parliament. It's time for a new 'election' for the position but the incumbent isn't invited to be on the ballot because faith in him/her has been lost or compromised.

These developments have me more sympathetic to Shanahan and MLSE than I already was. If Shanahan's claims are true and as of today, there is more evidence to corroborate them, I probably would have withdrawn the offer to Dubas too.

Nik

Quote from: Bender on June 01, 2023, 05:23:55 PMI don't know to what degree people said he wasn't "allowed" but I can easily see why it's bad optics to many.

Given that it's only seems to be read as bad optics by people who already seem determined to paint Dubas in a pretty bad light here I'm not sure I'd read much into that. Nearly all of the "This looks bad for Dubas stuff" seems to boil down to people not thinking that circumstances can change and/or wildly overreacting to something Dubas might have said during a professional lowpoint that may not be an entirely true reflection of his less emotional self. This really isn't any different.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

cw

Quote from: Nik on June 01, 2023, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 01, 2023, 05:23:55 PMI don't know to what degree people said he wasn't "allowed" but I can easily see why it's bad optics to many.

Given that it's only seems to be read as bad optics by people who already seem determined to paint Dubas in a pretty bad light here I'm not sure I'd read much into that. Nearly all of the "This looks bad for Dubas stuff" seems to boil down to people not thinking that circumstances can change and/or wildly overreacting to something Dubas might have said during a professional lowpoint that may not be an entirely true reflection of his less emotional self. This really isn't any different.

Where are the good optics for Dubas with his team withdrawing their offer to renew him (corroborated by both Dubas and Shanahan)?
It is effectively saying something like:
'After 9 years of your employment here, we think we can find someone else on short notice who will be a better option than you as Leafs GM going forward. You're effectively fired.'
That is in essence what the Leafs decision means. That is the essence of what goes on Dubas' resume.

I don't even see mediocre optics for Dubas in that decision:
'Be proud Kyle, you were so friggin' awesome winning one playoff round, we had to let you go!' 

In terms of wildly overreacting: When I last checked, the fans didn't fire Dubas 'wildly overreacting to something Dubas might have said' (OR done). The Leafs were the ones who reacted and effectively fired him. Things happen for a reason. Most fans know the Leafs must have had their reasons for letting him go. Shanahan provided some of them that were beyond Dubas' whimsical (paraphrased) "not sure if I want to remain GM" and his salary demands. Shanahan would have to have the backing of the board who authorized him to hire GM Treliving so it wasn't exclusively Shanahan. If the board wasn't with Shanahan, he would have been out the door and they even could have offered the President's role to Dubas or whoever.

Blunt fact without any optics or overreaction: the Leafs fired Kyle Dubas.

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

To me, after all is said and done it boils down to this.  Shanahan gave Dubas some very good cautionary advice — don't talk to the press until we have our deal done — and Dubas chose not to take it.  That was a very poor decision and it ended up costing him the most prestigious GM job in the business. 

It also speaks to what I posted above about maturity.  I get this is an Alpha Male world and that confidence is a very necessary commodity.  But a guy with more experience would, I think, have taken his boss's advice (his BOSS'S advice, for God's sake!) at what everyone could see was a delicate juncture. At the very least he could have played his cards close to the vest at the presser.  But he didn't, or perhaps couldn't help himself.

I appreciate and respect Dubas's Modern Male embrace of his own emotions, and his We Can and We Will attitude.  I was perfectly OK with him coming back and wish things hadn't turned out the way they have.  And Shanahan is not without blame.  But on balance, Dubas is more at fault.  He came pretty close to admitting that in his Pitts presser today.

IJustLurkHere

The thing I keep coming back to: who is the biggest loser out of this situation after the chips have fallen and the drama fades away? With Dubas taking this job in Pittsburgh, it cements for me that it's not Kyle Dubas. Whatever rationale the Leafs made their decision with, and whether or not we like the way either Dubas or the Leafs went about it, there is more risk in the approach taken by the Leafs than that taken by Dubas.

Dubas has already landed on his feet. The Leafs... have a lot of work to do.

Hopefully Treliving proves to be a better GM. Given the rush in which he was (and had to be) hired, it'll be serendipity if it does.

Bender

Quote from: IJustLurkHere on June 02, 2023, 02:12:48 AMThe thing I keep coming back to: who is the biggest loser out of this situation after the chips have fallen and the drama fades away? With Dubas taking this job in Pittsburgh, it cements for me that it's not Kyle Dubas. Whatever rationale the Leafs made their decision with, and whether or not we like the way either Dubas or the Leafs went about it, there is more risk in the approach taken by the Leafs than that taken by Dubas.

Dubas has already landed on his feet. The Leafs... have a lot of work to do.

Hopefully Treliving proves to be a better GM. Given the rush in which he was (and had to be) hired, it'll be serendipity if it does.

It's hard to compare an organization to an individual, and it's hard to say who made the right decisions, especially when two franchises are at much different places. I do have mixed feelings about how I think Trelivings tenure will go, but I'm not so sure about Kyle in Pittsburgh either.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

TimKerr

What exactly are the bad optics or negative consequences here for Dubas? He is now the President of Hockey Operations in Pittsburgh. He got a promotion. So however he was viewed to behave in the end in Toronto it certainly didn't matter cause he had a new job within a week.

Bender

Quote from: Nik on June 01, 2023, 06:06:45 PM
Quote from: Bender on June 01, 2023, 05:23:55 PMI don't know to what degree people said he wasn't "allowed" but I can easily see why it's bad optics to many.

Given that it's only seems to be read as bad optics by people who already seem determined to paint Dubas in a pretty bad light here I'm not sure I'd read much into that. Nearly all of the "This looks bad for Dubas stuff" seems to boil down to people not thinking that circumstances can change and/or wildly overreacting to something Dubas might have said during a professional lowpoint that may not be an entirely true reflection of his less emotional self. This really isn't any different.

My point though is I think people can understand that circumstances can change, and people can change their mind, but saying what he said to the media, then negotiating in the manner he did made him look foolish and in a lot of ways led to his dismissal, so I can understand why people can feel sour about it. I'm not saying it's right or that I agree with it, but I think it's understandable.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender