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Kyle Dubas not returning as GM

Started by CarltonTheBear, May 19, 2023, 10:58:11 AM

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Nik

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 22, 2023, 09:42:30 AMI may well be wrong but right now I'm not that worried that changing horses in midstream will affect the next guy's (and BTW hey, MLSE, want to make a statement? hire Wick) ability to re-sign all or some of the core 4.  There are a whole lot of factors going into their decisionmaking.  Let's not confuse buddy-ness with busi-ness.

It doesn't strike me as particularly out there to suggest that, generally speaking, stability is more attractive than instability. Hockey team or not, if you're at an organization that's making big changes and letting people go and talking about new directions then one of the assumed appeals of not making a big change yourself, that staying put would be familiar and safe, would seem less likely to be true.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Guilt Trip

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 22, 2023, 09:45:01 AMThere's no two ways about it, the odds of Matthews (and Nylander) extending their contracts this summer decreased with the Dubas firing.
Definitely and Spezza leaving also adds to it. Does anyone not think Matthews and others will be talking with Spezza and Dubas to see what went on? I know I would be.

L K

Really not liking some of the stuff coming from Friedman about the board meddling in decision making. 

I think we are heading for the demise of the franchise again.

Nik


None of what's being reported sounds good. This sounds like a mess brought on by an organization acting rashly and impulsively on the orders of people who shouldn't be making hockey decisions.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 22, 2023, 09:45:01 AMThere's no two ways about it, the odds of Matthews (and Nylander) extending their contracts this summer decreased with the Dubas firing.

I don't know how you can be so sure until we see who the replacement is.

Highlander

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 22, 2023, 12:44:53 PM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 22, 2023, 09:45:01 AMThere's no two ways about it, the odds of Matthews (and Nylander) extending their contracts this summer decreased with the Dubas firing.

I don't know how you can be so sure until we see who the replacement is.

I don't think its about the new hire, he/she will not receive autonomy either. The problem has and always be the corporate culture that has enveloped the Leafs since Conn croaked.  Dubas should have been given a two year deal with autonomy to see if he was the wonder kin he seemed to be. What a concept, I have completely reversed my opinion of Shanahan.  What a carnival sideshow.
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki


Highlander

"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki


Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington

The thing about the "Things must be really bad because Spezza resigned" seems overblown to me. He was appointed by Dubas as a special assistant to him, so of course he'd jump now out of loyalty.

Not saying this means all is actually ok, just is Spezza leaving really as bad as it at first seems?

cw

#205
Anybody who is selling that they should have given full blown autonomy to a 32 year old wet behind the ears GM to control a billion dollar hockey team with no questions asked seems absolutely out of their effing mind. Any board of directors that would accept such a contract is insane and irresponsible to put it politely. This is not pee wee league. It is big business.

If this 32 year old kid trades Auston Matthews for a bag of pucks, he's potentially done tens of millions of dollars damage to the business. No checks and balances for that? That proposition is so far out there, it is orbiting Uranus. The media might want to get ratings spinning stuff like this but I'd encourage folks to avoid that rabbit hole and use your heads for a minute. Remember, Kyle Dubas signed the contract that outlined his constraints like it would for every every other GM in the league but probably and understandably tighter due to his inexperience. If he is whining about it to generate the media whispers, he should man up and remind them that that was the arrangement he signed up for.

Managing is getting people to do things for you. That does not apply only to those who report to the manager. It applies to managing those the manager reports to. If a manager wants to do something that crosses the line of his pre approved authority, he has to sell that to those above him/her. That is part of his job. If they turned him down, a hunk of the responsibility probably lies on the sales job or quality of what he wanted to do - trying to convince them to go along with him. That is the real world.

Many will recall: Cliff Fletcher wanted to get Gretzky and seemed to have a deal. Owner Steve Stavro said no - he couldn't afford it at the time (something like that). Fletcher did not have blank cheque autonomy to do the deal.

Pat Quinn did not have blank cheque autonomy either. For example, he had to get approval on big deals or contracts (ie Mats Sundin's 5 x $9 mil/yr deal).

Before you go there: stuff like that is all over the league - not limited to the Leafs. Some of it is implied. Some of it is in their contracts. If Ken Holland traded Connor McDavid for a bag of pucks, how long you you think he'd be employed? Anyone who thinks he'd trade McDavid without getting ownership approval is crazy. NHL GMs tend to have dollar limits where they need to go to ownership/the board to get approval over a certain dollar amount - like any GM or CEO of a business. NHL GMs have budgets they have to adhere to - like any GM/CEO. They have to go to ownership to exceed it.

That is the way it is. Anyone suggesting otherwise is full of crap.

So a 32 year old who was signing his first NHL GM contract had to get approved by ownership/the board. To get that approval, he would very likely have to have tighter constraints on his autonomy or they would not go along with it. He was a higher risk due to his inexperience so they reduced that risk with tighter controls. Nobody complained about that five years ago. How could they dispute the concept under the circumstances? It came about from a history of some crazy deals getting made by prior NHL GMs.

To absorb part of the risk, Shanahan took on the responsibility of oversight. I have little pity for Dubas. He signed that contract and agreed to those terms. To whine about it after is probably BS.

Lou Lamoriello. Remember him? As Leafs GM, he very likely had max autonomy. He still had to conform to a budget like all GMs. He probably had limits on the dollar size of his transactions - but higher than Dubas. For example, he probably had to get approval to use Robidas island over some dollar amount as it might affect corporate insurance or budgeted cashflow. And he reported to Shanahan - not the board - and would have to conform to some considerable extent to the Shanaplan - that Dubas was also signed up for. It was Shanahan's decision to dump Lou to give Kyle a chance (I'm sure with board approval).

Any grievance over the autonomy limits Dubas agreed to in his previous contract, I'd be inclined to have little sympathy for.

If he had issues with his level of autonomy and money going forward, he should have been upfront with Shanahan, who claims he spoke with his agent for about two months prior. Dubas is not innocent of the contract breakdown. Takes two parties.

I think this is a tragic, lousy development for the franchise. Shanahan may need to be held to account when the dust settles. No GM is going to get fully plugged in to the talent, agents, coaches and staff in 40 days. Dubas probably had a better chance to patch it up for another shot. But I wouldn't let him hold the franchise to ransom either.

Nik

Quote from: Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington on May 22, 2023, 04:06:32 PMThe thing about the "Things must be really bad because Spezza resigned" seems overblown to me. He was appointed by Dubas as a special assistant to him, so of course he'd jump now out of loyalty.

Is anyone really saying that things are bad because Spezza resigned? Or are people saying Spezza resigning is a sign that things are bad and the decision to move on from Dubas will probably have deeper consequences for the club then just whether or not he's the best talent evaluator or whatever.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Nik

Quote from: cw on May 22, 2023, 04:11:13 PMAnybody who is selling that they should have given full blown autonomy to a 32 year old wet behind the ears GM to control a billion dollar hockey team with no questions asked seems absolutely out of their effing mind.

Is anyone saying that?
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

bustaheims

Quote from: Nik on May 22, 2023, 04:54:12 PM
Quote from: cw on May 22, 2023, 04:11:13 PMAnybody who is selling that they should have given full blown autonomy to a 32 year old wet behind the ears GM to control a billion dollar hockey team with no questions asked seems absolutely out of their effing mind.

Is anyone saying that?

There are definitely people who seemed surprised Dubas had to get Shanahan to sign off on moving a first round pick and suggest the fact that Shanny rejected some deals while pushing for others would be seen as detrimental rather than the typical management structure. Lots seem to be making more of the situation than what it is.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

bustaheims

Quote from: Nik on May 22, 2023, 04:39:23 PM
Quote from: Sir Nicholas de Mimsy-Porpington on May 22, 2023, 04:06:32 PMThe thing about the "Things must be really bad because Spezza resigned" seems overblown to me. He was appointed by Dubas as a special assistant to him, so of course he'd jump now out of loyalty.

Is anyone really saying that things are bad because Spezza resigned? Or are people saying Spezza resigning is a sign that things are bad and the decision to move on from Dubas will probably have deeper consequences for the club then just whether or not he's the best talent evaluator or whatever.

Yes. In this very thread.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan