Quick links:  Login  |  Sign up  |  Site Rules  |  Support TMLfans

Kyle Dubas not returning as GM

Started by CarltonTheBear, May 19, 2023, 10:58:11 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

CarltonTheBear

Quote from: Nik on May 23, 2023, 08:32:23 AM
Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 23, 2023, 08:20:46 AMI find it incredibly bizarre that we can somewhat legitimately blame an off-the-cuff comment that Dubas made in a press conference for his demise as the Leafs GM... and potentially (key word: potentially) the demise of the Matthews/Leafs era.

Seriously. This is just such an overblown Only-In-Toronto sort of issue. Dubas, being interviewed after another very disappointing playoff exit, says something pretty mild about the effect the job is having on him and people are acting like he went out like Scarface in Half-Baked.

I could somewhat understand the concern levels if Dubas like took his entire family on a 2-week vacation to Costa Rica to ponder his future or something, but the dude was back in the office working on Wednesday. That comment was way overblown.

CarltonTheBear

Quote from: herman on May 23, 2023, 08:51:26 AMI waited to hear this on the podcast myself to repeat it here. (about 19 minutes into the May 19 episode)

The big plus here for MLSE is Treliving won't need access to their private jet.

Nik

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 23, 2023, 08:52:31 AMI could somewhat understand the concern levels if Dubas like took his entire family on a 2-week vacation to Costa Rica to ponder his future or something, but the dude was back in the office working on Wednesday. That comment was way overblown.

It's just another example of how the fanbase creates problems for itself. Fans pay way too much attention to clean out the locker room day so if something is said that upsets them it's attached significance because they care so much about clean out the locker room day. Why would anyone care what gets said on that day if it doesn't then conform to anything that actually happens?

If I could be a relatively informed fan without knowing the GM's name it would make no difference to me. I'm a fan of the hockey team, not the corporate structure.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

cw

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 22, 2023, 09:07:41 PM
Quote from: cw on May 22, 2023, 08:11:48 PMNo question Shanahan and the board bear some responsibility for where we find ourselves today. However, a significant portion of the responsibility is also on Kyle Dubas.

People are accusing Shanahan of being unprofessional.  But it was Shanahan who advised Dubas against doing a presser until the deal was done, but Dubas insisted.  He then proceeded to share his personal issues in public — a very questionable decision and, to many people, including me, an unprofessional one.

Again, I like many things about Dubas but he is by no means a fully polished manager.  His set-to with the fans in Tampa was, as he himself admitted, probably foolish.

So I agree with cw here: there's blame to be had on both sides.

My sense of last summer is Shanahan pitched the concept of a contract for Dubas to the board last summer - not insisting on it - floating the idea. He got their answer.

Being forthright is a component of integrity. As business people, we have to weigh what we're told against our confidence in the person who told us. It is natural to have more faith in people who are forthright and straight with us. It is also natural to lose faith in people who are not forthright and not straight with us.

I thought it was professional and thoughtful that Shanahan approached Dubas after the deadline - which was the earliest he practically could given the board's response last summer. It was an early, more humane end to Dubas swinging in the breeze in his contract year. Dubas didn't have to wait to find out if he won a playoff round. Shanahan felt he'd done well through the deadline and wanted closure. I see little wrong with that on Shanahan's part. He's had Dubas' back for 9 years. It had to have occurred well before Dubas' press conference of last Monday because Shanahan would have to get the blessing of the board who rejected Dubas' extension last summer.

Shanahan maintains the understanding began to be developed shortly after the trade deadline - which I find credible. The team would not want to leave this decision to the last moment of his contract with so many decisions in front of them and this decision needed to be the first or one of the first.

On Monday, Dubas claimed he was deliberating family issues. Between Monday & Friday, something changed that caused Shanahan to withdraw his renewal offer. There were no decisions made by the GM pertaining to the club that could cause that change. His last key decisions were made at the trade deadline. Therefore, it is likely that Shanahan's account of Dubas' agent requesting significant changes the previous day is credible as was Shanahan's concern that Dubas was publicly announcing he wasn't committed to return last Monday.

This smells of Dubas not being forthright with Shanahan. There is little question that something substantial changed after Monday that was significant. If accurate, one looking at that could not be faulted for wondering if this was posturing to run down the clock in order to pressure the Leafs into giving Dubas a better deal. If accurate, one could ask themselves "why wouldn't he be straight and up front with me from the outset?" If accurate, not being forthright diminished the perception of Dubas' integrity and their trust in him.

If those contract demands contained, as some have speculated, complete autonomy from Shanahan, one could construe that the demands largely eradicate Shanahan's role at MLSE ... and the primary decision maker on accepting that was Shanahan. Talk about a tough sell.

Further, to have some understanding for some period of time that was very likely presented to the board and suddenly be put into the embarrassing position of having to go back to the board with a sudden demand for substantially different contract demands at the last moment (that potentially eradicate your position) would be a tough sell to a board that had declined to renew last summer and all they'd got was one playoff round victory in five years.

We haven't heard from Dubas. But I'm having trouble imagining any explanation where he comes up all roses.


Nik


Yeah, that makes sense. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone would over think "The end to the season made Dubas re-evaluate what he felt he needed professionally to progress with the Leafs and the Leafs/Shanahan apparently balked at what he wanted".
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

CarltonTheBear

https://twitter.com/reporterchris/status/1660963080459673600

Treliving: Meh
Armstrong: Not available, but also meh... not really sure where some of the "he's the best GM in the league" stuff comes from
Botterill: Meh
Bergevin: Please no
Bowman: wtf?

I think it's very, very, very likely it ends up being Treliving but one dark horse name that I've seen kicked around who I actually wouldn't totally hate: Garth Snow.

herman

Reasonable and consistent but private x____x
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Peter D.

Oh gawd...I don't know what it is about Treliving that he is garnering so much talk as the next GM of the team.  That would feel like a disappointment if he is indeed the one that is hired.

And as much as I was never a fan of Dubas, it is also the reason why I wouldn't have minded if was kept around.  I'm just not sure there are better candidates out there than what he brought to the team already.

herman

MLSE wants Treliving because he has demonstrated he can be a Yes Man. He has also demonstrated he hates it, but will at least tolerate it for 9 years.
#27 #TeamFasstholes

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on May 23, 2023, 08:52:31 AMI could somewhat understand the concern levels if Dubas like took his entire family on a 2-week vacation to Costa Rica to ponder his future or something, but the dude was back in the office working on Wednesday. That comment was way overblown.

Well, the fanbase didn't generate the angst.  Shanahan said the comments were the beginning of his second thoughts.

Dappleganger

Quote from: Peter D. on May 23, 2023, 09:53:59 AMOh gawd...I don't know what it is about Treliving that he is garnering so much talk as the next GM of the team.  That would feel like a disappointment if he is indeed the one that is hired.

And as much as I was never a fan of Dubas, it is also the reason why I wouldn't have minded if was kept around.  I'm just not sure there are better candidates out there than what he brought to the team already.

Treliving does have a track record of not re-signing his star players as free agents and trading away star players.

L K

Treliving has been in Calgary for 9 seasons.  He was hired in April 2014 so I'm going to give him credit for that draft too:

1st - Sam Bennett (4), Matthew Tkachuck (6), Juuso Valimaki (16), Jakob Pelletier (26), Matt Coronato (13)
2nd - Rasmus Andersson (53), Oliver Kylington (60), Dillon Dube (56)
3rd - Adam Fox (66)
4th - Adam Ruzicka (109)
5th -
6th - Andrew Mangiapane (166), Matthew Phillips (166)
7th - Dustin Wolf (214)

13 of 54 picks played at least 1 game in the NHL.  His best pick is Adam Fox who chose not to sign with Calgary and went to the Rangers.  Mangiapane, Andersson and Mylington were solid non-first round picks.

In contract Dubas has 9 of his 35 draft picks playing at least 1 game in the NHL.  I'm not going to delve into who was/wasn't a Dubas pick in the prior drafts when he was still AGM.

Treliving has a few more guys with longer established tracts than Dubas but I don't really see his draft history as anything overly remarkable.

His trade history also strikes me as kind of meh.  I don't think the Tkachuk trade was terrible based on the trade request but it didn't really make the Flames any better (and I think is a bit relevant given the Leafs core 4 scenario).  He acquired Lucic for a broken down James Neal.  Made a couple of trade down for more picks moves at the draft.  Traded for Dougie Hamilton (1st and 2 2nds) and then later traded him and a few lesser players (including Adam Fox) for Noah Hanifin and and Elias Lindholm.

I don't think he's a terrible option as GM but he seems like a Melba toast selection

CarltonTheBear

Quote from: L K on May 23, 2023, 11:12:34 AMI don't think he's a terrible option as GM but he seems like a Melba toast selection

He's the best most mediocre option available probably. The Flames averaged 93 points a season with him as GM. So continually stuck between being bad enough to get a good draft pick and good enough to actually compete for the Cup. They won 2 playoff series and missed the playoffs 4 times. Regular season points percentage over .600 just twice. Coaches he hired were: Glen Gulutzan (who?), Bill Peters (ugh), and Darryl Sutter. Sutter's the interesting one since he arguably both saved his job in 21/22 and then later cost him his job in 22/23, and by also most accounts was a hire that ownership kinda/sorta forced on him.

Can we do worse? Sure. Can we do better with all of MLSE's vast resources? Well, apparently not.

Nik


This just keeps getting dumber and dumber.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi