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Kyle Dubas not returning as GM

Started by CarltonTheBear, May 19, 2023, 10:58:11 AM

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Bender

Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 09:49:48 AM
Quote from: mr grieves on May 21, 2023, 06:48:07 AMIf, even after disappointing post seasons, Dubas was in the best position to re-sign Matthews and get a good deal for Marner before his NMC kicks in, and Matthews walks or Marner's dictating trae terms, then it's a disaster for the franchise.

That's where I keep coming back to. It's a near certainty that guys like Spezza were popular guys to have around. Whatever gains you might think might be made by bringing in a new GM, it seems really unlikely that it will outweigh throwing a hand grenade into the front office when you're trying to convince guys to come back at reasonable rates.

Lol reasonable rates. Right.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Zee

It's been mentioned that Hellebuyck has 1 year left, will want a big number and probably not stay in Winnipeg. I can see the new GM trading for him given what we've seen from goaltending in this playoffs. Bobrovsky's run will convince the new regime you only need a goalie. I guess we'll see

herman

The main difference between this situation and a regular firing of GM/coach to go another direction is that MLSE/Shanahan was happy to continue in this direction albeit with some (big) modifications —- replace a coach, shake up the core roster a bit, instil urgency, etc.

Instead, we have a reactionary dismissal that is tantamount to inciting civil war on the cusp of some major decisions.

As for the rift between Dubas and Shanahan only being leaked now: this was from April

https://twitter.com/graemenichols/status/1647666492073230338
#27

Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 09:59:23 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 09:49:48 AM
Quote from: mr grieves on May 21, 2023, 06:48:07 AMIf, even after disappointing post seasons, Dubas was in the best position to re-sign Matthews and get a good deal for Marner before his NMC kicks in, and Matthews walks or Marner's dictating trae terms, then it's a disaster for the franchise.

That's where I keep coming back to. It's a near certainty that guys like Spezza were popular guys to have around. Whatever gains you might think might be made by bringing in a new GM, it seems really unlikely that it will outweigh throwing a hand grenade into the front office when you're trying to convince guys to come back at reasonable rates.

Lol reasonable rates. Right.

That's not what we're trying to do?
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bender

Quote from: herman on May 21, 2023, 12:10:20 PMThe main difference between this situation and a regular firing of GM/coach to go another direction is that MLSE/Shanahan was happy to continue in this direction albeit with some (big) modifications —- replace a coach, shake up the core roster a bit, instil urgency, etc.

Instead, we have a reactionary dismissal that is tantamount to inciting civil war on the cusp of some major decisions.

As for the rift between Dubas and Shanahan only being leaked now: this was from April

https://twitter.com/graemenichols/status/1647666492073230338

You're quite dramatic today.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Bender

#185
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 02:07:15 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 09:59:23 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 09:49:48 AM
Quote from: mr grieves on May 21, 2023, 06:48:07 AMIf, even after disappointing post seasons, Dubas was in the best position to re-sign Matthews and get a good deal for Marner before his NMC kicks in, and Matthews walks or Marner's dictating trae terms, then it's a disaster for the franchise.

That's where I keep coming back to. It's a near certainty that guys like Spezza were popular guys to have around. Whatever gains you might think might be made by bringing in a new GM, it seems really unlikely that it will outweigh throwing a hand grenade into the front office when you're trying to convince guys to come back at reasonable rates.

Lol reasonable rates. Right.

That's not what we're trying to do?

The players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference. Signing in general is probably more or an issue but I don't think for a second Dubas would be getting rates much different for what they'd get if they ultimately re-sign through Pridham or whomever is doing the negotiation.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 04:34:16 PMThe players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference.

Not to re-hash all of the old talk of their contracts but I think Dubas did get pretty reasonable rates on those first deals but, regardless, things and people change. You're negotiating now with guys who have earned many millions of dollars. You're negotiating with guys who might be looking to settle down more. You're also negotiating with guys who've seen some of the results of a team being top-heavy salary wise. There's really no way to know how any of these guys might be going into the negotiations.

And now they're going into a situation where instead of negotiating with someone they might like and trust, who's got one of their old teammates around as an advocate, you might have someone they don't know and who might want to get rid of some of them.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bill_Berg_is_pissed_off

Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 04:34:16 PMThe players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference.

Not to re-hash all of the old talk of their contracts but I think Dubas did get pretty reasonable rates on those first deals but, regardless, things and people change. You're negotiating now with guys who have earned many millions of dollars. You're negotiating with guys who might be looking to settle down more. You're also negotiating with guys who've seen some of the results of a team being top-heavy salary wise. There's really no way to know how any of these guys might be going into the negotiations.

And now they're going into a situation where instead of negotiating with someone they might like and trust, who's got one of their old teammates around as an advocate, you might have someone they don't know and who might want to get rid of some of them.

The new guy may be negotiating with players that have suddenly noticed the grass on the other side of the fence is looking pretty darn green.

mr grieves

Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_less_sad on May 22, 2023, 12:34:53 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 04:34:16 PMThe players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference.

Not to re-hash all of the old talk of their contracts but I think Dubas did get pretty reasonable rates on those first deals but, regardless, things and people change. You're negotiating now with guys who have earned many millions of dollars. You're negotiating with guys who might be looking to settle down more. You're also negotiating with guys who've seen some of the results of a team being top-heavy salary wise. There's really no way to know how any of these guys might be going into the negotiations.

And now they're going into a situation where instead of negotiating with someone they might like and trust, who's got one of their old teammates around as an advocate, you might have someone they don't know and who might want to get rid of some of them.

The new guy may be negotiating with players that have suddenly noticed the grass on the other side of the fence is looking pretty darn green.

I think dumping Lou before those post-ELC deals was, despite all his failings, a mistake; one possible advantage the team could've had in those negotiations was putting an intimidating HoFer across the table from their agents.

It will be something if another poorly timed GM dismissal has more dire consequences. 

Guilt Trip

Quote from: mr grieves on May 22, 2023, 08:03:19 AM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_less_sad on May 22, 2023, 12:34:53 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 04:34:16 PMThe players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference.

Not to re-hash all of the old talk of their contracts but I think Dubas did get pretty reasonable rates on those first deals but, regardless, things and people change. You're negotiating now with guys who have earned many millions of dollars. You're negotiating with guys who might be looking to settle down more. You're also negotiating with guys who've seen some of the results of a team being top-heavy salary wise. There's really no way to know how any of these guys might be going into the negotiations.

And now they're going into a situation where instead of negotiating with someone they might like and trust, who's got one of their old teammates around as an advocate, you might have someone they don't know and who might want to get rid of some of them.

The new guy may be negotiating with players that have suddenly noticed the grass on the other side of the fence is looking pretty darn green.

I think dumping Lou before those post-ELC deals was, despite all his failings, a mistake; one possible advantage the team could've had in those negotiations was putting an intimidating HoFer across the table from their agents.

It will be something if another poorly timed GM dismissal has more dire consequences. 
Lou has plenty of bad contracts so that is way over blown as to his effect.

Bender

#190
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_less_sad on May 22, 2023, 12:34:53 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 04:34:16 PMThe players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference.

Not to re-hash all of the old talk of their contracts but I think Dubas did get pretty reasonable rates on those first deals but, regardless, things and people change. You're negotiating now with guys who have earned many millions of dollars. You're negotiating with guys who might be looking to settle down more. You're also negotiating with guys who've seen some of the results of a team being top-heavy salary wise. There's really no way to know how any of these guys might be going into the negotiations.

And now they're going into a situation where instead of negotiating with someone they might like and trust, who's got one of their old teammates around as an advocate, you might have someone they don't know and who might want to get rid of some of them.

The new guy may be negotiating with players that have suddenly noticed the grass on the other side of the fence is looking pretty darn green.

They're out of their minds if they think they're going to have another buddy in Kyle down the road as GM or that their whole careers will be free of organizations going through GM changes.

And at the end of the day pretty much everything else that Kyle implemented that could stand out from other clubs is still here.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Bender

Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 22, 2023, 08:08:48 AM
Quote from: mr grieves on May 22, 2023, 08:03:19 AM
Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_less_sad on May 22, 2023, 12:34:53 AM
Quote from: Nik on May 21, 2023, 04:58:05 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 21, 2023, 04:34:16 PMThe players have all the leverage here and considering we couldn't sell them on reasonable rates with Dubas when Dubas had all the leverage then I really don't see a difference.

Not to re-hash all of the old talk of their contracts but I think Dubas did get pretty reasonable rates on those first deals but, regardless, things and people change. You're negotiating now with guys who have earned many millions of dollars. You're negotiating with guys who might be looking to settle down more. You're also negotiating with guys who've seen some of the results of a team being top-heavy salary wise. There's really no way to know how any of these guys might be going into the negotiations.

And now they're going into a situation where instead of negotiating with someone they might like and trust, who's got one of their old teammates around as an advocate, you might have someone they don't know and who might want to get rid of some of them.

The new guy may be negotiating with players that have suddenly noticed the grass on the other side of the fence is looking pretty darn green.

I think dumping Lou before those post-ELC deals was, despite all his failings, a mistake; one possible advantage the team could've had in those negotiations was putting an intimidating HoFer across the table from their agents.

It will be something if another poorly timed GM dismissal has more dire consequences. 
Lou has plenty of bad contracts so that is way over blown as to his effect.

His Marleau and Zaitsev deals were pretty insane.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Nik

Quote from: Bill_Berg_is_less_sad on May 22, 2023, 12:34:53 AMThe new guy may be negotiating with players that have suddenly noticed the grass on the other side of the fence is looking pretty darn green.

That's sort of how I look at it. Like it or not, going with the same gang for one more shot at it could have been the central point of Dubas' pitch to these guys. "Stay here, finish what we've built, take a discount maybe so we have more to work with and prove the haters wrong" and now it very well could be a guy who has bought into what the haters say, that changes need to be made and that's why he just traded away one of your best friends.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Dubas accomplished a lot of very good things with the organization, both on-ice and (importantly) in the community.  He didn't bungle Pride Nights, or cover up abuse, and was a very positive force socially.  I really liked what he stood for, as a person and as the leader of the team.  That will be hard, not to say impossible, to replace.

I may well be wrong but right now I'm not that worried that changing horses in midstream will affect the next guy's (and BTW hey, MLSE, want to make a statement? hire Wick) ability to re-sign all or some of the core 4.  There are a whole lot of factors going into their decisionmaking.  Let's not confuse buddy-ness with busi-ness.

CarltonTheBear

There's no two ways about it, the odds of Matthews (and Nylander) extending their contracts this summer decreased with the Dubas firing.