R2, G5: Panthers @ Maple Leafs - May 12th, 7:00pm - SN, Fan 590

[azzurri63]

Overall this team is just too GD soft

Said it a thousand times but funny thing is some don't think so. But each year we are always back in the same position and questioning the teams toughness. That and lack of scoring again.

How can you possibly question their toughness in this series?  They went toe to toe.  They stuffed Tkachuk pretty much.  They had all kinds of big hits.  Toughness wasn't the problem.  Scoring, or lack thereof, absolutely.

When I say toughness I mean making it difficult hitting people getting in their face at the end of plays whatever. Teams do it against us and we just take it. I'm not knocking the effort tonight but the team is easy to play against because opponents know there's nothing coming back at them. As much as I hate guys like Gudas Bennett those are the types of players you need in the playoffs. I didn't see them getting hit. Bennett still running around hitting people and hard both of them for that matter. Bennett should have been targeted after taking out Knies. That's what I'm getting at.

That bugs me as well. There was zero push back on Bennett, Gudas and Tkachuk who knew they could get away with taking runs at our star players (and anyone else). Its never a good thing when you have only one forward (Accari) who poses any kind of physical threat.

Watching the replay of Knies getting thrown to the ice first thing I said as I did not watch the game first thing I asked was he addressed about it. Game was close as I said so no need for dumb penalties. If not them let him know next game but not this team. Rookie getting pummelled and no push back. Sadly you can make an argument he was one of or not our best player. That's why I would have dressed Simmonds just to keep them on their toes.

[Nik]

All things being equal, I agree with you, Nik.  But the window is closing from a salary cap perspective.  Bunting, for instance, is a significant contributor.  He will not play in Toronto for $900k again.  Can you replace him at that salary?  Maybe Knies can get you part way but 60+ points is a pretty high bar.  Can Gio do what he did this year at $750?  Samsonov?

Maybe not but the other way to look at that is, you know, they found Bunting. They found Samsonov. They convinced Giordano to come cheap. Those exact guys might not be back at the same salary but do I think Dubas, or whoever, can't find guys along those lines? I don't see why I would considering he found them in the first place.

(and, you know, aside from Samsonov none of those guys were major contributors in the playoffs this year anyway)

The window won't be open in terms of just running back the same guys year after year but I remain pretty convinced you can find good pieces to bolster the foundation the Leafs have.

The fact is Nylander and Matthews need new deals this summer.  They will not play at the rates they're currently at.  The issue, for me, is that the salary cap environment. 

I tend to be a "Let's cross that bridge when we get there" kind of guy when it comes to the cap. So much could happen in that regards that we can't predict that I'm not inclined to lose any sleep about consequences that will come for the 24-25 season if at all.

[azzurri63]

Ultimately, the window of opportunity is quickly closing and that's what's most disappointing to me. 

I just don't buy that. When you have core players as good as the ones the Leafs have the window is bigger and open longer than usual. Again I'll point to the Caps not winning until Ovechkin's Draft +14 year.

They might have to make some adjustments here and there but as long as the Leafs have that sort of talent around the window is open.

All things being equal, I agree with you, Nik.  But the window is closing from a salary cap perspective.  Bunting, for instance, is a significant contributor.  He will not play in Toronto for $900k again.  Can you replace him at that salary?  Maybe Knies can get you part way but 60+ points is a pretty high bar.  Can Gio do what he did this year at $750?  Samsonov? 

The fact is Nylander and Matthews need new deals this summer.  They will not play at the rates they're currently at.  The issue, for me, is that the salary cap environment. 

I'll admit I'm also pretty dismayed that Matthews  seems unable to elevate his game in the playoffs the way other players of his ilk seem to do more often.  But I'm trying to be rational.

Ultimately, the window of opportunity is quickly closing and that's what's most disappointing to me. 

I just don't buy that. When you have core players as good as the ones the Leafs have the window is bigger and open longer than usual. Again I'll point to the Caps not winning until Ovechkin's Draft +14 year.

They might have to make some adjustments here and there but as long as the Leafs have that sort of talent around the window is open.

All things being equal, I agree with you, Nik.  But the window is closing from a salary cap perspective.  Bunting, for instance, is a significant contributor.  He will not play in Toronto for $900k again.  Can you replace him at that salary?  Maybe Knies can get you part way but 60+ points is a pretty high bar.  Can Gio do what he did this year at $750?  Samsonov? 

The fact is Nylander and Matthews need new deals this summer.  They will not play at the rates they're currently at.  The issue, for me, is that the salary cap environment. 

I'll admit I'm also pretty dismayed that Matthews  seems unable to elevate his game in the playoffs the way other players of his ilk seem to do more often.  But I'm trying to be rational.

Nil we haven't always been on the same page but I will say this. You're absolutely right regarding comparing the Leafs team to the Cap teams. It's not easy winning a cup but to me it's progress. What did the Caps do all those years? Get ousted in the first round year after year? How did ovechkin do? Was he invisible for the most part like our stars have been for the last 4 years? That's what you got to look at. We haven't won a round until this year and that could have easily changed as we weren't the better team so it could easily have been another early exit. I'd like to see more from M&M period in the playoffs. If they were producing and we were losing I wouldn't be so critical of them. I don't see that changing because personally I don't think they have what it takes to take over a series.

[Peter D.]

Honestly thought after the Round 1 win the Leafs were going to parade to the Cup. 

Played well in this series being close in each game.  Sucks they couldn't break through in a few of those games.  The big guns besides Rielly and Nylander were underwhelming.

I'd keep Dubas around.  But not sure Keefe is the right coach for this group.  He continually gets outcoached in the playoffs.

[TheMightyOdin]

Defense and goaltending didn't seem to be the main problem to me. We needed more scoring and leadership.

It sucks losing. Ill be 50 this year. In the 40 something years I've been watching we made it to the final 4 twice.

[Guilt Trip]

It'll be interesting to see if Matthews has been playing hurt all year.

His wrist is wrapped but who knows..he couldn't buy a goal in this series but I won't forget him carrying the team against TBay. Rielly was incredible and we have a goalie! And Knies!

Man I love you Guilt Trip
Your optimism jives with mine
Imagine Woll in 45 games with no Holl

End of the day/season it's hockey. Great year and hope more kids are in the lineup next season. 

[Deebo]

Defense and goaltending didn't seem to be the main problem to me. We needed more scoring and leadership.

It sucks losing. Ill be 50 this year. In the 40 something years I've been watching we made it to the final 4 twice.

They made the final 4 in 93, 94, 99 and 02.

[Nik]

How did ovechkin do? Was he invisible for the most part like our stars have been for the last 4 years?

I don't agree with that assessment to begin with so it's not a standard I'll use. Ovechkin had some playoff years where his numbers were good and some where they weren't which is how I'd describe the Leafs best players.

I've seen, with my own eyes, these guys play well in the playoffs so the idea that they can't is just straight up nonsense. We're all frustrated they didn't find the back of the net this series against hot goaltending but letting that frustration override good, rational thinking is a recipe for bad moves that make the team worse.

[Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate]

It's a tough read.  One clear-eyed take is that they didn't really progress this year.  They got outplayed in both rounds.  Went a miserable 1-5 at home — which is just mind-boggling.  Core 4 scored 1 goal in 5 games R2.

OTOH Marner, Matthews, to a lesser extent Nylander all delivered offense in R1.  The whole team matched both opponents physically IMO.  Woll got valuable experience, though truth be told I think he's got a halo effect going right now.  The first two goals tonight weren't howlers, but they could have been saved. He lost 2 out of 3 games he played in.

I think the core gets one more shot, but I would make two moves at minimum: new coach, and new captain.  One changes strategy, the other leadership.

I lean toward letting Dubas go but wouldn't be upset if they rehire him.  He pushes all the right buttons except for playoff success.  My concern is that he's too invested in the structure to make the two moves I advocate.

[Nik]

I think the core gets one more shot, but I would make two moves at minimum: new coach, and new captain.  One changes strategy, the other leadership.

The same coach can employ different strategies and most hockey players, when asked about leadership, say it's not dictated by who wears what letters sewn onto the front of their jerseys.

I'm not opposed to them making moves but unless there's more concrete on why the moves will yield better results those seem like change just for its own sake.

[Bill_Berg_is_less_sad]

Shitty ending, but I think Dubas has done well. I hope they re-sign him and keep at least part of this core long term. It will be an interesting off season.

[Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate]

I think the core gets one more shot, but I would make two moves at minimum: new coach, and new captain.  One changes strategy, the other leadership.

The same coach can employ different strategies and most hockey players, when asked about leadership, say it's not dictated by who wears what letters sewn onto the front of their jerseys.

I'm not opposed to them making moves but unless there's more concrete on why the moves will yield better results those seem like change just for its own sake.

Keefe strikes me as not adding enough value.  I don't see anything in him that says, outstanding coach.  In playoffs past I thought he got out-coached.  This one, not really.

As for Tavares, I think the team would benefit from a captain whose temperature setting isn't so low. 

[azzurri63]

Not my words but I totally agree.

What went wrong?

When Toronto needed its star players most, they were nowhere to be found. That's the best explanation for how the Leafs flamed out in spectacularly cruel fashion against the Florida Panthers in just five games.

The Leafs battled past the Tampa Bay Lightning to advance for the first time in a postseason series in almost 20 years. None of that momentum carried into the second round, where Florida repeatedly punched Toronto in the gut and the Leafs kept letting it happen.

Auston Matthews, Mitch Marner, John Tavares and William Nylander failed to score in the first three games vs. Florida as Toronto fell behind 3-0. By the time Nylander and Marner picked up their pace in Game 4, it was too late to salvage the Leafs' postseason.

The energy, the passion, the killer instinct Toronto showed in its first-round series was all but forgotten in Round 2. The Leafs looked tired, and often listless, and like maybe they didn't even believe in themselves. In the end, the result reflected how much effort Toronto appeared to put into its last gasp at a postseason push.

[Nik]

Keefe strikes me as not adding enough value.  I don't see anything in him that says, outstanding coach.  In playoffs past I thought he got out-coached.  This one, not really.

I'm not enough of an X's and O's guy to know if there's anything he actually did wrong and I'm not enough of an insider to know how he's felt about within the room. Again, I'm not saying that you can't or shouldn't make a change, just that I think for that to be a real positive move I'd have to have something firmer on those grounds.

As for Tavares, I think the team would benefit from a captain whose temperature setting isn't so low. 

Again, I don't know the dressing room dynamic and can't speak to it but like I said, I generally think attaching much importance to letter wearing is misplaced and, specifically, I don't know if I'd react to the Team Captain scoring the goal that broke a 19 year drought for the team by taking something symbolic from him because he didn't have a very good second round.

But YMMV.

[Lee-bo]

Heartless team. No guts. And no, they didn't show up this series at all. Our top 2 lines were nearly invisible. Teams a joke. Fans defending this team are a joke. Get out of La La land, franchise is a joke. No one on that team inspires!

That being said, this was the worst officiated playoffs all around I've ever seen. Parros is a clown show. Refs and Parros are too involved in outcomes. Think I'm done with the NHL. 40 years of watching and this team is truly pathetic.