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R2, G3: Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - May 7th, 6:30pm - SN, Fan 590

Started by CarltonTheBear, May 06, 2023, 11:01:03 PM

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Bender

Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:20:25 AMCan someone explain to me why Keefe did not break up Matthews and Marner when they were playing so horrible?

He's not a great coach? I don't know. I think he lacks some level of creativity with his team and play style.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Guilt Trip

Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:20:25 AMCan someone explain to me why Keefe did not break up Matthews and Marner when they were playing so horrible?
That's my issue. I'm not saying Matthews was great or anything but for me, Marner was the sole reason for that line struggling. I don't know what Marner was doing out there. He was only charged with 1 giveaway which is absurd because he gave it away all game. Keefe's reluctance to split them up might end up being his downfall.
I actually thought Matthews played well defensively but as far as offence goes, it's hard to produce when you're dragging around 1 guy.
Just one bad decision after another for 16 last night

Guilt Trip

Quote from: Bender on May 08, 2023, 08:23:19 AM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:20:25 AMCan someone explain to me why Keefe did not break up Matthews and Marner when they were playing so horrible?

He's not a great coach? I don't know. I think he lacks some level of creativity with his team and play style.
I don't know what it is. I think coaches get comfortable with certain players and combos. Sometime you need to make the tough decisions. Like I don't know why Holl went back in. Liljegren play aweful or something? Hey at least he brought in Gus to limit Gio's ice.

Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 08, 2023, 08:13:14 AMRegarding the team comparison, Ok possibly, but I still liked all of those Leafs teams from 98-04 and they didn't all do well, (that JR goal is burned into mu psyche) but I always appreciated the sandpaper and perceived compet3 they brought to most games (save that like 12 shot game against Jersey).

Those teams from 98-2004 made two Conference Finals which, again, may not be great but still, as a team, is about as successful a Leafs run as we've seen. They also had a bunch of thrilling series victories over our hated rivals.

I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

L K

Quote from: Nik on May 08, 2023, 08:33:30 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 08, 2023, 08:13:14 AMRegarding the team comparison, Ok possibly, but I still liked all of those Leafs teams from 98-04 and they didn't all do well, (that JR goal is burned into mu psyche) but I always appreciated the sandpaper and perceived compet3 they brought to most games (save that like 12 shot game against Jersey).

Those teams from 98-2004 made two Conference Finals which, again, may not be great but still, as a team, is about as successful a Leafs run as we've seen. They also had a bunch of thrilling series victories over our hated rivals.



Kerry Fraser high stick aside the Sundin Leafs lost in OT of Game 6 against Carolina.  Not quite Game 7 but that to me seems every bit as successful as the Gilmour run.

Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 08, 2023, 08:13:14 AMWhich is the point in that they traded arguably their best player for Tkachuk. Obviously this won't be re-created and Tkachuk is a bit of a unicorn, but there's this crash and bang element to the Panthers game that they didn't have before.

There is, of course, a small problem with that narrative. While without a doubt trading for Tkachuk was done with the idea of adding some grit it also should be mentioned that Tkachuk was a guy whose team had also just been knocked out of the 2nd round 4-1 by a team they were favoured over in a series where Tkachuk had just one assist in the Flames last four games, all losses. So a trade to add some toughness? Sure. A trade to achieve playoff success? I mean it's worked so kudos but Tkachuk was basically as much a flop in the second round last year as our guys have been this year.

I know people don't like hearing this but the reality is that a lot of what happens in the playoffs is kind of random. All sorts of players, even those hailed as gritty and playoff ready and all that, sometimes have crummy stretches and bad series. Hell, one bounce the other way and this battle tested awesome gritty character filled Panthers team was getting knocked out in 5 games against the Bruins.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

BrownRolo

Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 08, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:20:25 AMCan someone explain to me why Keefe did not break up Matthews and Marner when they were playing so horrible?
That's my issue. I'm not saying Matthews was great or anything but for me, Marner was the sole reason for that line struggling. I don't know what Marner was doing out there. He was only charged with 1 giveaway which is absurd because he gave it away all game. Keefe's reluctance to split them up might end up being his downfall.
I actually thought Matthews played well defensively but as far as offence goes, it's hard to produce when you're dragging around 1 guy.
Just one bad decision after another for 16 last night

I honestly would have benched him. Or at least given him very limited minutes. He was a nervous wreck out there. Keefe seems afraid of Matthews and Marner. After that first goal where Bunting failed to get it deep and then Matthews did his one-handed attempt they showed Keefe on the bench and it seemed he was having words with Bunting but not Matthews. Hard to tell of course, but I don't think I've ever seen Marner get a talking to after all his giveaways.

Guilt Trip

Quote from: Nik on May 08, 2023, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 08, 2023, 08:13:14 AMWhich is the point in that they traded arguably their best player for Tkachuk. Obviously this won't be re-created and Tkachuk is a bit of a unicorn, but there's this crash and bang element to the Panthers game that they didn't have before.

There is, of course, a small problem with that narrative. While without a doubt trading for Tkachuk was done with the idea of adding some grit it also should be mentioned that Tkachuk was a guy whose team had also just been knocked out of the 2nd round 4-1 by a team they were favoured over in a series where Tkachuk had just one assist in the Flames last four games, all losses. So a trade to add some toughness? Sure. A trade to achieve playoff success? I mean it's worked so kudos but Tkachuk was basically as much a flop in the second round last year as our guys have been this year.

I know people don't like hearing this but the reality is that a lot of what happens in the playoffs is kind of random. All sorts of players, even those hailed as gritty and playoff ready and all that, sometimes have crummy stretches and bad series. Hell, one bounce the other way and this battle tested awesome gritty character filled Panthers team was getting knocked out in 5 games against the Bruins.
Again totally agree and well said.

bustaheims

If they can't make a series out of things, changes are inevitable, but I doubt they'll be as extreme as some are suggesting/screaming for.

-Keefe might be gone, but, at the very least, he'll be on a short leash. A new voice in the room might be the biggest change the team needs, though.
-Dubas coming back is probably more on him than on the team, to be honest.
-In terms of the core 4 upfront, there's no realistic trades involving Matthews or Marner that improve the team - we're talking about two guys who are among the top 5 at their respective positions. Moving them is a downgrade, period.
-Nylander has probably been the team's best player in this series - and has been productive in the playoffs the last few springs. He's the easiest to move, but if we're talking about building a team built for success in the playoffs, you don't move your best playoff performer.
-Tavares is probably most deserving of being moved, but, with a full NMC, he's not likely going anywhere.
-Of the 10 pending UFAs, the only ones that should be offered an opportunity to come back are Acciari, Schenn, and O'Reilly. Maybe Gustafsson, depending on some other moves, but the rest can go. Only 7 forwards currently on the roster are under contract for next season. That alone will change the complexion of the team quite dramatically.
-It might be time to consider moving Lilegren. He's a good young D, but his struggles with an effective forecheck really limit his effectiveness when it's crunch time.
-If Murray can be dumped without giving up assets, you have to do it to clear up some cap space. Same with Muzzin, to try to avoid needing to go into LTIR space.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Guilt Trip

Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:51:50 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 08, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:20:25 AMCan someone explain to me why Keefe did not break up Matthews and Marner when they were playing so horrible?
That's my issue. I'm not saying Matthews was great or anything but for me, Marner was the sole reason for that line struggling. I don't know what Marner was doing out there. He was only charged with 1 giveaway which is absurd because he gave it away all game. Keefe's reluctance to split them up might end up being his downfall.
I actually thought Matthews played well defensively but as far as offence goes, it's hard to produce when you're dragging around 1 guy.
Just one bad decision after another for 16 last night

I honestly would have benched him. Or at least given him very limited minutes. He was a nervous wreck out there. Keefe seems afraid of Matthews and Marner. After that first goal where Bunting failed to get it deep and then Matthews did his one-handed attempt they showed Keefe on the bench and it seemed he was having words with Bunting but not Matthews. Hard to tell of course, but I don't think I've ever seen Marner get a talking to after all his giveaways.
I actually think Keefe was talking to both of them. And I don't know what was going on with Marner. He looked so nervous and indecisive even in his zone coverage.
I know Keefe had the blender out but he didn't move Marner away from Matthews.  Matthews and Willy played just under 2 mins of 5v5. They outshot F 4-0, had 3 scoring chances for, 0 against.
Marner for me was Matthews's biggest issue last night and Keefe didn't put his best player in a position to succeed when it was clear to all, that Marner didn't have it last night.

Significantly Insignificant

Quote from: Nik on May 08, 2023, 08:43:38 AM
Quote from: Bender on May 08, 2023, 08:13:14 AMWhich is the point in that they traded arguably their best player for Tkachuk. Obviously this won't be re-created and Tkachuk is a bit of a unicorn, but there's this crash and bang element to the Panthers game that they didn't have before.

There is, of course, a small problem with that narrative. While without a doubt trading for Tkachuk was done with the idea of adding some grit it also should be mentioned that Tkachuk was a guy whose team had also just been knocked out of the 2nd round 4-1 by a team they were favoured over in a series where Tkachuk had just one assist in the Flames last four games, all losses. So a trade to add some toughness? Sure. A trade to achieve playoff success? I mean it's worked so kudos but Tkachuk was basically as much a flop in the second round last year as our guys have been this year.

I know people don't like hearing this but the reality is that a lot of what happens in the playoffs is kind of random. All sorts of players, even those hailed as gritty and playoff ready and all that, sometimes have crummy stretches and bad series. Hell, one bounce the other way and this battle tested awesome gritty character filled Panthers team was getting knocked out in 5 games against the Bruins.

Yeah I was going to post that Calgary also changed their core significantly after a playoff loss to the Oilers, and they didn't even make the playoffs.
"We can't change what's done, we can only move on." - Arthur Morgan

Significantly Insignificant

Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 08, 2023, 09:15:18 AM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:51:50 AM
Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 08, 2023, 08:29:43 AM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 08:20:25 AMCan someone explain to me why Keefe did not break up Matthews and Marner when they were playing so horrible?
That's my issue. I'm not saying Matthews was great or anything but for me, Marner was the sole reason for that line struggling. I don't know what Marner was doing out there. He was only charged with 1 giveaway which is absurd because he gave it away all game. Keefe's reluctance to split them up might end up being his downfall.
I actually thought Matthews played well defensively but as far as offence goes, it's hard to produce when you're dragging around 1 guy.
Just one bad decision after another for 16 last night

I honestly would have benched him. Or at least given him very limited minutes. He was a nervous wreck out there. Keefe seems afraid of Matthews and Marner. After that first goal where Bunting failed to get it deep and then Matthews did his one-handed attempt they showed Keefe on the bench and it seemed he was having words with Bunting but not Matthews. Hard to tell of course, but I don't think I've ever seen Marner get a talking to after all his giveaways.
I actually think Keefe was talking to both of them. And I don't know what was going on with Marner. He looked so nervous and indecisive even in his zone coverage.
I know Keefe had the blender out but he didn't move Marner away from Matthews.  Matthews and Willy played just under 2 mins of 5v5. They outshot F 4-0, had 3 scoring chances for, 0 against.
Marner for me was Matthews's biggest issue last night and Keefe didn't put his best player in a position to succeed when it was clear to all, that Marner didn't have it last night.

I think that Matthew's and Marner have too much power in Toronto.  I think Keefe is scared of ticking them off or challenging them.  Kinda like the Ovechkin situation in Washington before Trotz.  I'm not sure why he won't move Marner onto a line with O'Reilly and try rolling three lines.
"We can't change what's done, we can only move on." - Arthur Morgan

Nik

Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 03:57:00 AMOh also to add to the "barely made the playoffs" Like that is something to discredit them. Who gives a flying f**k if they barely made the playoffs? Let's ask the Panthers. You could be heading to the 3rd round or you could get swept in the 2nd round but finish 2nd in the ATL. What would you choose? Ask the fans. No one cares about the regular season. Especially Leaf fans.

Pointing out that the Panthers barely squeaked into the playoffs, in large part because of the hot play of a goalie who then proved so ineffective in the playoffs that he needed to be benched, drives home that so much of what happens in the playoffs is random and hard to predict and not strictly a measure of quality.

I mean, I get it. In chaos we try to discern patterns so as to try and make sense of things but in a league with this sort of parity where so much of success boils down to a single unpredictable variable (goaltending) making grand sweeping statements like "X happened in one playoff series therefore Y" is almost always going to be wrong.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

BrownRolo

Quote from: Nik on May 08, 2023, 09:55:19 AM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 03:57:00 AMOh also to add to the "barely made the playoffs" Like that is something to discredit them. Who gives a flying f**k if they barely made the playoffs? Let's ask the Panthers. You could be heading to the 3rd round or you could get swept in the 2nd round but finish 2nd in the ATL. What would you choose? Ask the fans. No one cares about the regular season. Especially Leaf fans.

Pointing out that the Panthers barely squeaked into the playoffs, in large part because of the hot play of a goalie who then proved so ineffective in the playoffs that he needed to be benched, drives home that so much of what happens in the playoffs is random and hard to predict and not strictly a measure of quality.

I mean, I get it. In chaos we try to discern patterns so as to try and make sense of things but in a league with this sort of parity where so much of success boils down to a single unpredictable variable (goaltending) making grand sweeping statements like "X happened in one playoff series therefore Y" is almost always going to be wrong.

I feel like I'm reading a cut scene from Jurassic Park. I read your post in Jeff Goldblum's voice just so you know.

NHL playoffs results are random to a degree, I agree. I also have eyes and unfortunately used them to watch Game 3. When you have 3 of the top 10 highest paid players in the league on your team and all 3 of them are exceptionally inept I don't care how much randomness there is you are not winning games.

Nik

Quote from: BrownRolo on May 08, 2023, 10:18:09 AMNHL playoffs results are random to a degree, I agree. I also have eyes and unfortunately used them to watch Game 3. When you have 3 of the top 10 highest paid players in the league on your team and all 3 of them are exceptionally inept I don't care how much randomness there is you are not winning games.

Again, it was literally a game that went into OT. A single shot goes differently and the Leafs win.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi