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R2, G3: Panthers vs. Maple Leafs - May 7th, 6:30pm - SN, Fan 590

Started by CarltonTheBear, May 06, 2023, 11:01:03 PM

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4EVRLEAFAN

Quote from: Guilt Trip on May 07, 2023, 08:45:47 PM
Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 07, 2023, 08:41:08 PMI really thought they might thrive after getting the R1 monkey off their backs.  How very wrong I was.
They ran into a buzzsaw. This is exactly what they did to Boston.

Doesn't matter, they've been rebuilding this team for 8 years now, it's us who should be the buzz saw now, and after tonight's effort there's just no other conclusion, this team is not right.

Nik

You can't win in the playoffs if your top guys don't play well and they haven't here.

The people,though who think this is endemic to these players are wrong. If the Leafs best players "did this all the time" they wouldn't make it to game 7's. They, well, they'd get down 3-0.

And I don't think this can be chalked up to inherent mental flaws either. There's an actual literal Conn Smythe winner on the team who isn't playing well.

But they're not getting their butts kicked. They've lost three close games. That's frustrating but any one looking to ascribe a deeper meaning to this other than "They haven't played very well three games in a row" is really just looking to confirm past beliefs.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Peter D.

It's disconcerting how ordinary and full of holes this team can look at times.

gunnar36

Lets not be fooled, they are getting what they deserve as they really have no business even being in round 2 with the way they have played thus far.

They need something to give them a boost, wouldnt be opposed to calling up Holmberg to add some life up front.  This 11-7 doesnt seem to work for them, would be nice to have lines with established identity at this stage of the playoffs but things have been a little blended and there has not been any line that has dominated.

Deebo

Quote from: Nik on May 07, 2023, 08:56:20 PMThe people,though who think this is endemic to these players are wrong. If the Leafs best players "did this all the time" they wouldn't make it to game 7's. They, well, they'd get down 3-0.

Ok, only a majority of the time them.

Guilt Trip

Quote from: Nik on May 07, 2023, 08:56:20 PMYou can't win in the playoffs if your top guys don't play well and they haven't here.

The people,though who think this is endemic to these players are wrong. If the Leafs best players "did this all the time" they wouldn't make it to game 7's. They, well, they'd get down 3-0.

And I don't think this can be chalked up to inherent mental flaws either. There's an actual literal Conn Smythe winner on the team who isn't playing well.

But they're not getting their butts kicked. They've lost three close games. That's frustrating but any one looking to ascribe a deeper meaning to this other than "They haven't played very well three games in a row" is really just looking to confirm past beliefs.
Well said.

Bender

Quote from: Nik on May 07, 2023, 08:56:20 PMYou can't win in the playoffs if your top guys don't play well and they haven't here.

The people,though who think this is endemic to these players are wrong. If the Leafs best players "did this all the time" they wouldn't make it to game 7's. They, well, they'd get down 3-0.

And I don't think this can be chalked up to inherent mental flaws either. There's an actual literal Conn Smythe winner on the team who isn't playing well.

But they're not getting their butts kicked. They've lost three close games. That's frustrating but any one looking to ascribe a deeper meaning to this other than "They haven't played very well three games in a row" is really just looking to confirm past beliefs.

This was a close game on the score sheet only. I think most people would agree that they played well enough to win the first two, but the way they lost today and the way they played after going down 2-0 is what's setting people off. And the truth is they haven't played well for most of these playoffs and were lucky to get out of Round 1.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Nik

Quote from: Deebo on May 07, 2023, 09:11:00 PM
Quote from: Nik on May 07, 2023, 08:56:20 PMThe people,though who think this is endemic to these players are wrong. If the Leafs best players "did this all the time" they wouldn't make it to game 7's. They, well, they'd get down 3-0.

Ok, only a majority of the time them.

This is the only Playoff series I know of where this group just got waxed and, even then their worst individual loss has been by 2 goals.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 07, 2023, 09:13:04 PMThis was a close game on the score sheet only. I think most people would agree that they played well enough to win the first two, but the way they lost today and the way they played after going down 2-0 is what's setting people off.

If your worst individual game of the series is one that was close on the scoresheet "only" and went to OT then I feel like that speaks to my point.

But my point isn't "people shouldn't be frustrated". The Leafs are down 3-0. Being frustrated by that is understandable.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bender

Quote from: Nik on May 07, 2023, 09:17:15 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 07, 2023, 09:13:04 PMThis was a close game on the score sheet only. I think most people would agree that they played well enough to win the first two, but the way they lost today and the way they played after going down 2-0 is what's setting people off.

If your worst individual game of the series is one that was close on the scoresheet "only" and went to OT then I feel like that speaks to my point.

But my point isn't "people shouldn't be frustrated". The Leafs are down 3-0. Being frustrated by that is understandable.

I mean, I also think this goes back to pretty much every other playoff series as well. They've been the better team in most series' and lost. It's a fair question as to when you need to retool or get new coaching. I think making the 2nd Round and losing in 6 or 7 would, I think fairly, change people's minds vs. a potential sweep.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

TheMightyOdin

I thinks it's a lack of "seizing the moment" that is frustrating. It sucks to lose but it's worse when it seems like they're not playing up to their potential.
The Catalyst?

Nik

Quote from: Bender on May 07, 2023, 09:34:18 PMI mean, I also think this goes back to pretty much every other playoff series as well. They've been the better team in most series' and lost. It's a fair question as to when you need to retool or get new coaching. I think making the 2nd Round and losing in 6 or 7 would, I think fairly, change people's minds vs. a potential sweep.

It's absolutely a fair question and, to be sure, I think that if this series ends without the Leafs getting back into it I would be shocked if Keefe kept his job. It would be very difficult at this point to argue that he is getting the most out of this team.

As for "retooling" I think your choice of word there is apt because I think some people are kidding themselves if they think the Leafs can "move on" from this group of core players and not have it be another return to the drawing board where you basically start from scratch. If the central premise for making changes is "The main guys on this team are overpriced bums who fold under pressure and can't win anything. Also, let's trade them for really good players who can win in crunch time" you are misreading how trades generally work.

And, you know, for what it's worth I listen to a sports podcast out of Miami and the things we're all saying about the Leafs now is what they were saying about the Panthers last year when they got swept in the second round so...?
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

This may be heresy, but after cooling off a bit I wonder about blowing up the core entirely and changing the playstyle.  This group has been a helluva lot of fun to watch during the season, and there is a lot more time spent watching that than the playoffs.

From a purely odds-based perspective the chances of winning the Cup are so low, for any team.

So from an overall-amount-of-fun perspective, I'm tempted to let this group get one last chance together next year ... with a new coach.

Bender

Quote from: Nik on May 07, 2023, 09:45:42 PM
Quote from: Bender on May 07, 2023, 09:34:18 PMI mean, I also think this goes back to pretty much every other playoff series as well. They've been the better team in most series' and lost. It's a fair question as to when you need to retool or get new coaching. I think making the 2nd Round and losing in 6 or 7 would, I think fairly, change people's minds vs. a potential sweep.

It's absolutely a fair question and, to be sure, I think that if this series ends without the Leafs getting back into it I would be shocked if Keefe kept his job. It would be very difficult at this point to argue that he is getting the most out of this team.

As for "retooling" I think your choice of word there is apt because I think some people are kidding themselves if they think the Leafs can "move on" from this group of core players and not have it be another return to the drawing board where you basically start from scratch. If the central premise for making changes is "The main guys on this team are overpriced bums who fold under pressure and can't win anything. Also, let's trade them for really good players who can win in crunch time" you are misreading how trades generally work.

And, you know, for what it's worth I listen to a sports podcast out of Miami and the things we're all saying about the Leafs now is what they were saying about the Panthers last year when they got swept in the second round so...?

It is kind of hilarious to me that they barely made the playoffs and have been the hottest team since Game 5 of the Boston series, and we'll see if they can replicate their playoff success but people I think people were of mixed opinion in giving up both Huberdeau and Weegar for Tkachuk and now Tkachuk and Bennett and a few other guys they've brought on are playing a completely different brand of hockey now. I think if Leafs fans saw that, or in Leafs terms, had more guys like (or played a style like) Doug, Wendel and Darcy and saw them leaving it all our there on the ice if things werent going their way, matching the other team in hustle and spirit and forecheck but not on the scoreboard we'd probably think differently as well. I think there's a reason why we still love the 92/93 team and still talk about guys like Tucker and Roberts even though they never won.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Bender

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 07, 2023, 10:01:48 PMThis may be heresy, but after cooling off a bit I wonder about blowing up the core entirely and changing the playstyle.  This group has been a helluva lot of fun to watch during the season, and there is a lot more time spent watching that than the playoffs.

From a purely odds-based perspective the chances of winning the Cup are so low, for any team.

So from an overall-amount-of-fun perspective, I'm tempted to let this group get one last chance together next year ... with a new coach.

Gimme a new coach, but I'm definitely not against moving one of the core 4 besides Matthews. Florida moved Huberdeau to get here.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender