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The Core

Started by hobarth, May 06, 2023, 09:35:35 PM

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Bill_Berg

Quote from: Bullfrog on May 12, 2023, 03:38:16 PM
Quote from: hobarth on May 09, 2023, 02:51:53 PM...
Is AM playing hurt, maybe/probably, seems to be a regular occurrence, 6'3", the new Lupul? He's only had one full season, this last year was his next best, 74 games, in 7 years he's only had more than 82 points 2 times, nothing about this guy screams superstar, he's more patient than star.
...


Player        GPGP    G/GP
Mike Bossy   752    573   1,1260.76
Mario Lemieux9156901,7230.75
Pavel Bure702437 7790.62
Auston Matthews4812995420.62
Alex Ovechkin1,3478221,4850.61
Wayne Gretzky1,4878942,8570.60
Brett Hull1,2697411,3910.58
Bobby Hull1,0636101,1700.57
Tim Kerr6553706740.56
Richard Martin6853847010.56
Phil Esposito1,282 7171,5900.56
Maurice Richard9785449660.56
Cam Neely7263956940.54
Marcel Dionne1,3487311,7710.54
Pat LaFontaine8654681,0130.54
Connor McDavid5693038500.53


Shut up facts! NOTHING!

hobarth

I'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Significantly Insignificant

Quote from: hobarth on May 13, 2023, 12:12:34 AMI'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.
"We can't change what's done, we can only move on." - Arthur Morgan

Zee

Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on May 13, 2023, 09:55:16 AM
Quote from: hobarth on May 13, 2023, 12:12:34 AMI'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.

These are the same type of posters who then, years later say, "why did they give up on Kessel, see what a force he was in those 2 Cup wins? Why did they give up on Kadri, see what a force he was in that Cup win?". You can't win with these haters. Grass is always greener on the other side

Guilt Trip

Quote from: Zee on May 13, 2023, 09:59:38 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on May 13, 2023, 09:55:16 AM
Quote from: hobarth on May 13, 2023, 12:12:34 AMI'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.

These are the same type of posters who then, years later say, "why did they give up on Kessel, see what a force he was in those 2 Cup wins? Why did they give up on Kadri, see what a force he was in that Cup win?". You can't win with these haters. Grass is always greener on the other side
Yup which is why I choose to ignore most of them.

BrownRolo

I think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

BrownRolo

Quote from: Zee on May 13, 2023, 09:59:38 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on May 13, 2023, 09:55:16 AM
Quote from: hobarth on May 13, 2023, 12:12:34 AMI'm talking playoffs, Matthews does what he does every year and normally the excuse is he's playing hurt.

Again TO could only score 2 goals, Matthews zero, superstars show up when it counts, no excuses well maybe occasionally but certainly not consistently like Matthews.

TO isn't going to do well in the playoffs relying on Matthews and he's only signed for one more year, time to move on.

Thank you for the post.  This is very enlightening.  I appreciate getting the perspective of the Leafs from the other side of the bell curve.

These are the same type of posters who then, years later say, "why did they give up on Kessel, see what a force he was in those 2 Cup wins? Why did they give up on Kadri, see what a force he was in that Cup win?". You can't win with these haters. Grass is always greener on the other side

It's almost like when those players were traded they went to new teams, with new coaches and new teammates. Nobody is saying these guys suck. It's just it isn't working here. The current mix is just not getting it done. It's time to move on.

Zee

Quote from: BrownRolo on May 13, 2023, 11:12:29 AMI think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

Nothing says playoff success like Bruce Boudreau

Bill33

I understand the frustration. It's just that I can't get behind the idea that playoff success is the most important bar in keeping a core group together. There's just too much randomness -  injuries, officiating, voodoo goaltending, etc. Florida beating both Boston and Toronto is pretty much perfect evidence of it.

I think the best strategy is to keep a core group together that has the best potential of getting to the postseason, and tinker around the edges, and hope for a good matchup/showing, and some calls and bounces. That's pretty much what's in place.

I know the overreactions are going to come fast and furious, but I think moving any of the core 3 (I don't consider Tavares a key part of the equation any longer) makes near term success less likely than more, imo.

And I like Dubas. He hasn't been mistake free. But outside goaltending, I've liked his FA pickups and how he goes about doing business. Keefe, however, can go. A new voice in the room wouldn't be a bad thing.

Arn

Quote from: Bill33 on May 13, 2023, 02:42:30 PMI understand the frustration. It's just that I can't get behind the idea that playoff success is the most important bar in keeping a core group together. There's just too much randomness -  injuries, officiating, voodoo goaltending, etc. Florida beating both Boston and Toronto is pretty much perfect evidence of it.

I think the best strategy is to keep a core group together that has the best potential of getting to the postseason, and tinker around the edges, and hope for a good matchup/showing, and some calls and bounces. That's pretty much what's in place.

I know the overreactions are going to come fast and furious, but I think moving any of the core 3 (I don't consider Tavares a key part of the equation any longer) makes near term success less likely than more, imo.

And I like Dubas. He hasn't been mistake free. But outside goaltending, I've liked his FA pickups and how he goes about doing business. Keefe, however, can go. A new voice in the room wouldn't be a bad thing.

Yeah, I think I'd see what options are there to replace Keefe. The one who springs to mind that I'd have really liked is maybe Trotz but that's not going to happen now.

Dubas should stay. He has a lot of scope to make a lot of changes with a lot of expiring contracts etc.

In terms of playing changes, I actually really like Nylander, but unfortunately for him Matthews is a one season removed Hart winner, Marner is a Selke finalist. Tavares is probably unmovable. So that makes Nylander "expendable" due to his ability and his contract. I could see him packed with Brodie or something for a younger "stud" D man to balance out the way the roster is constructed and I could get on board with such a move.

I'd love us to get ROR signed.
I Saw Jay McClement Score.

azzurri63

#25
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 13, 2023, 11:12:29 AMI think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

I said that last year and nothing changed and come playoffs nothing changed. Not too sure what some people are watching on here. In my opinion TB was the better team and in this series we were. Goaltending was the reason we won and lost in both rounds. Having said that I complained about this core not being able to get it done and nothing has changed my opinion on that. Listening to Marner after elimination games makes me wanna puke. Him and Matthews aren't playoff performers. U take away Marners 3 point game in a 7-2 rout in the first series what else did he do and when Matthews goes scoreless in 5 games but some are happy with his play c'mon. He gets paid to score goals and handsomely and doesn't produce. Game 3 in this series was the last straw with this heartless bunch. Totally mailed it in in probably the biggest game of the year. Enough said and for those saying he's injured quit making excuses for these overpaid underachievers.

I agree Hobarth make some moves because I can honestly see us losing Matthews and getting sfa. Like I said before they'll probably throw more money at him and in my opinion not deserving. Like Bieska just said what kind of team are they trying to build a regular season team or a team to win 4 rounds. Can't argue we aren't a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs.

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate

Quote from: azzurri63 on May 13, 2023, 07:18:49 PM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 13, 2023, 11:12:29 AMI think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

I said that last year and nothing changed and come playoffs nothing changed. Not too sure what some people are watching on here. In my opinion TB was the better team and in this series we were. Goaltending was the reason we won and lost in both rounds. Having said that I complained about this core not being able to get it done and nothing has changed my opinion on that. Listening to Marner after elimination games makes me wanna puke. Him and Matthews aren't playoff performers. U take away Marners 3 point game in a 7-2 rout in the first series what else did he do and when Matthews goes scoreless in 5 games but some are happy with his play c'mon. He gets paid to score goals and handsomely and doesn't produce. Game 3 in this series was the last straw with this heartless bunch. Totally mailed it in in probably the biggest game of the year. Enough said and for those saying he's injured quit making excuses for these overpaid underachievers.

I agree Hobarth make some moves because I can honestly see us losing Matthews and getting sfa. Like I said before they'll probably throw more money at him and in my opinion not deserving. Like Bieska just said what kind of team are they trying to build a regular season team or a team to win 4 rounds. Can't argue we aren't a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs.

They could be built for the playoffs with better coaching, though.  Keefe should have been telling them to interfere, grab sticks like Gudas did on the GWG, all of that, and then dare the refs to call only us on it.

The way penalties are called (read: not called) in the playoffs seems designed to smother skill.  The coaches need to have a plan from Day 1 of training camp on how to transition to this reality.  Same with tighter checking and all of that.  They have regular season mode figured out.  They need to be ready to transition to playoff mode.  Apparently some teams have figured this out.  Not us.

mr grieves

Quote from: Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate on May 13, 2023, 07:31:19 PM
Quote from: azzurri63 on May 13, 2023, 07:18:49 PM
Quote from: BrownRolo on May 13, 2023, 11:12:29 AMI think it's time to really move on from this core. Matthews and Marner just can not get it done in this market come playoffs. They can't handle the pressure or whatever. Matthews will get a boatload in a trade. An American who was MVP last season and Rocket winner. Kings would be a great fit for him. Marner would bring in a huge return as well. Just makes sense to cash out while we can. We can retool and get some young players for next year. Sign Tom Wilson and let's go change the attitude of this team. Give fans something to be excited about again. Bring Boudreau in. We have been more than patient with this core. They've had their opportunities. It's time to move on.

I said that last year and nothing changed and come playoffs nothing changed. Not too sure what some people are watching on here. In my opinion TB was the better team and in this series we were. Goaltending was the reason we won and lost in both rounds. Having said that I complained about this core not being able to get it done and nothing has changed my opinion on that. Listening to Marner after elimination games makes me wanna puke. Him and Matthews aren't playoff performers. U take away Marners 3 point game in a 7-2 rout in the first series what else did he do and when Matthews goes scoreless in 5 games but some are happy with his play c'mon. He gets paid to score goals and handsomely and doesn't produce. Game 3 in this series was the last straw with this heartless bunch. Totally mailed it in in probably the biggest game of the year. Enough said and for those saying he's injured quit making excuses for these overpaid underachievers.

I agree Hobarth make some moves because I can honestly see us losing Matthews and getting sfa. Like I said before they'll probably throw more money at him and in my opinion not deserving. Like Bieska just said what kind of team are they trying to build a regular season team or a team to win 4 rounds. Can't argue we aren't a great regular season team but not built for the playoffs.

They could be built for the playoffs with better coaching, though.  Keefe should have been telling them to interfere, grab sticks like Gudas did on the GWG, all of that, and then dare the refs to call only us on it.

The way penalties are called (read: not called) in the playoffs seems designed to smother skill.  The coaches need to have a plan from Day 1 of training camp on how to transition to this reality.  Same with tighter checking and all of that.  They have regular season mode figured out.  They need to be ready to transition to playoff mode.  Apparently some teams have figured this out.  Not us.

Beyond in-game tactics, I think it'd be useful to try a voice that's proven capable of managing and getting performances out of stars. Getting commitment to a structure is something Keefe's accomplished, but he's not someone who's succeeded in pushing whatever buttons one does to get 'more than the sum of their parts' performances. Whatever they conjured in games 3 and 4 in Tampa was strikingly absent in R2G3, and Keefe seemed at a loss. It'd be nice to have had the chance to see this assemblage of talent under a coach who could push those buttons before the contracts were up for extension and NMC/NTCs kicked in, but that's not how the timing's worked out. 

hobarth

I think the core goes beyond the big 4 and I really can't see any good reason to keep even the next tier of TO's core, this would be players who've been around for 3 or more years.

Rielly, Brodie and Holl make $14.5 mil. per year, they've been around forever and they aren't good enough to make up for TO's spending so much on the forwards , Rielly had a great 1st round but outside of a few heroic moments in the 2nd round basically disappeared. Brodie has never been worth $5 mil., Holl definitely appears to be going down hill. Seattle's top paid d-man makes $4.6 mil. and their entire d corp makes $20 mil., they are still in the playoffs.

Kerfoot is the Swiss Army Knife of the overpaid, he somehow coaxed $3.5 Mil per out of Dubie, brilliant for him, not so much for Dubie. I have an idea that might help Dubie in the future, don't pay any forward from $3.2 to $3.5 mil. per year like he has for Kerfoot, Kappy and Andersson.

Seattle is still in the playoffs and TO isn't, another core member needs to go, Keefe couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag, it's pathetic. How many times have we heard/seen TO play down to it's opposition, how many times are we truly wondering if TO can beat Anaheim, a coach needs to motivate/coach his team to become consistent, to play to their level of competence on a far more consistent basis, Keefe has never been able to. I don't know if what I'm looking for is possible out of this group but I know Keefe will never find it.

Dubie has looked for character and d at every TDL but he doesn't look for offensive depth and he sure never finds it. TO has issues scoring in the playoffs, year after year, but Dubie will add more lateral d-men like McCabe and then be exasperated when TO again can't score enough to win. The question is, does TO always faces hot goalies or is the question, is TO's offense only regular season superior, d wins Championships, probably, but only if a team can score, TO consistently hasn't scored enough to win no matter how good the d. Dubie needs better glasses so he can actually see what TO needs, scoring depth, time for him to go.

That Jarnkrok, what a waste of roster space and Cap dollars, he had an exceptional regular season for him so maybe some dum dum GM can be coaxed to take him off of TO's hands, get rid of him, ASAP. Kerfoot had a decent year in 2021/22, he should have been moved, too.

Don't resign Kampf, unless it's for league minimum, definitely no more.

TO couldn't score in the playoffs but sat Timmins and Gustafsson, played Holl, Brodie and Schenn who couldn't in any way help TO score, brilliant.

I loved Kessel, liked Kadri but found him too floater prone to be over the top about him. I feel/felt that TO should've gone far in the playoffs during the Matthews eras first 3 years and Kessel was the superior support that was needed, Kessel on Pitts was the difference and he could've been with TO. Kadri should've been a winger with TO, he was an essential support player with Colorado, the results for Colorado this year definitely points towards how valuable Kadri was during his career year.   

Zanzibar Buck-Buck McFate


A better first-take postmortem is by Drain over at MLHS:

https://mapleleafshotstove.com/2023/05/13/how-the-2023-leafs-were-defeated-and-what-comes-next/

Note that he appropriately isn't too dogmatic about what should happen. 

From my perspective the Leafs did the bare minimum they needed to do this playoff: got out of R1.  Is it good enough?  No, but it is a step forward.  Is it good enough to save Dubas's job?  Read Drain on that.

I wonder how we would all feel if, as everyone expected, Boston had beaten Florida, and then went on to beat us 4-1 in R2.  Would you have been surprised?  I wouldn't have.  Boston looked invincible going into the postseason.   (I'm not too happy right now, but I bet I am happier than every Bruin fan on the face of the earth.)

This R2 really stings because the Leafs should have won it, period.  That doesn't mean that I think they had a pass to the SCF.  Both Carolina and NJ had better records than us.