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What Now?

Started by hobarth, January 16, 2023, 02:56:13 PM

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hobarth and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Bender

Quote from: hobarth on January 23, 2023, 05:47:03 PMWe can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

 
 

Listen to what you're saying. I understand not liking the construction of the team but waiving a significant portion of the roster simply isn't an option.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Nik

Quote from: hobarth on January 23, 2023, 05:47:03 PMWe can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

The answer is yes, you can. There is nothing that could happen to this hockey team that will require you to lose your cool. Whether or not you keep your hockey fandom, a recreational pursuit that is meant to be fun, in the proper perspective is 100% within your control.

Quote from: hobarth on January 23, 2023, 05:47:03 PMI've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

If how this team performs to you is something you want to talk about as a matter of survival then please go outside for a bit and take a few deep breaths.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Guilt Trip

Quote from: Bender on January 23, 2023, 06:05:32 PM
Quote from: hobarth on January 23, 2023, 05:47:03 PMWe can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

 
 

Listen to what you're saying. I understand not liking the construction of the team but waiving a significant portion of the roster simply isn't an option.
It's flat out ridiculous.

Highlander

Quote from: hobarth on January 23, 2023, 05:47:03 PMWe can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.

 
 
Man, I want some of what your smoking. Outside of being daft, Rielly has a NMC, he can't be traded, why don't people seem to get that?
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki

bustaheims

Quote from: Highlander on January 24, 2023, 10:41:17 AMMan, I want some of what your smoking. Outside of being daft, Rielly has a NMC, he can't be traded, why don't people seem to get that?

Because it doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has final say over if he wants to be traded - and typically, they're not an impediment to making a trade.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Bill33

Quote from: bustaheims on January 24, 2023, 12:27:42 PM
Quote from: Highlander on January 24, 2023, 10:41:17 AMMan, I want some of what your smoking. Outside of being daft, Rielly has a NMC, he can't be traded, why don't people seem to get that?

Because it doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has final say over if he wants to be traded - and typically, they're not an impediment to making a trade.

Technically I agree, but they're likely an impediment to getting the best deal back.

 I'm also of the opinion that if an organization offers NMCs to sweeten contracts, and they pressure recipients to waive, it's not a good strategy for attracting FAs or retaining talent. -  particularly in a case where Reilly just signed an extension fairly recently.


Nik

Quote from: Bill33 on January 24, 2023, 12:45:17 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on January 24, 2023, 12:27:42 PM
Quote from: Highlander on January 24, 2023, 10:41:17 AMMan, I want some of what your smoking. Outside of being daft, Rielly has a NMC, he can't be traded, why don't people seem to get that?

Because it doesn't mean he can't be traded. It just means he has final say over if he wants to be traded - and typically, they're not an impediment to making a trade.

Technically I agree, but they're likely an impediment to getting the best deal back.

 I'm also of the opinion that if an organization offers NMCs to sweeten contracts, and they pressure recipients to waive, it's not a good strategy for attracting FAs or retaining talent. -  particularly in a case where Reilly just signed an extension fairly recently.

Pressure, sure. But "Hey man, would you be open to a trade" probably doesn't fall within that definition.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

bustaheims

Also, there's dozens and dozens of incidents of players being asked about waiving clauses with little to no blowback on the teams. The Flyers haven't had much issue signing anyone even after the trades Carter and Richards shortly before extensions kicked in. It's a business. Players understand that. Might burn bridges with the specific guys being shipped out, but the idea that it has a larger impact on the team being able to add talent via free agency has been largely debunked.

That being said, the team should have little to no interest in trading Rielly.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Bender

Quote from: bustaheims on January 24, 2023, 06:04:40 PMAlso, there's dozens and dozens of incidents of players being asked about waiving clauses with little to no blowback on the teams. The Flyers haven't had much issue signing anyone even after the trades Carter and Richards shortly before extensions kicked in. It's a business. Players understand that. Might burn bridges with the specific guys being shipped out, but the idea that it has a larger impact on the team being able to add talent via free agency has been largely debunked.

That being said, the team should have little to no interest in trading Rielly.

I'm not against trading Rielly in theory, but it shouldn't be a trade for trades sake. I do think they should try to make more moves for cost control vs. letting players walk but I think management would do that if the opportunity was there.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Nik

Quote from: bustaheims on January 24, 2023, 06:04:40 PMAlso, there's dozens and dozens of incidents of players being asked about waiving clauses with little to no blowback on the teams. The Flyers haven't had much issue signing anyone even after the trades Carter and Richards shortly before extensions kicked in. It's a business. Players understand that. Might burn bridges with the specific guys being shipped out, but the idea that it has a larger impact on the team being able to add talent via free agency has been largely debunked.

Yeah, between front office turnover and just the reality that most guys are going to make personal decisions come free agent time(especially $ based) it seems unlikely to be a real factor in attracting guys to the team in any meaningful lasting sense. A much more realistic concern would be about what it might do to the dynamic with the guys you've already got if you're not great to a buddy of theirs.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

bustaheims

Quote from: Nik on January 24, 2023, 08:10:04 PMYeah, between front office turnover and just the reality that most guys are going to make personal decisions come free agent time(especially $ based) it seems unlikely to be a real factor in attracting guys to the team in any meaningful lasting sense. A much more realistic concern would be about what it might do to the dynamic with the guys you've already got if you're not great to a buddy of theirs.

And, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Nik

Quote from: bustaheims on January 25, 2023, 11:29:26 AMAnd, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

Sure but you don't always want to be in a position where in order to sign someone you're offering them the most money possible or the best possible chance to win.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bill_Berg_is_sad

If Dubas did what's suggested. Trade Rielly and waive five guys at this point in the season, it would both mess the team up socially for the rest of the year (and on the ice) and make others think twice about signing here while Dubas is the GM. But what a story it would be! Trump-level crazy!

bustaheims

Quote from: Nik on January 25, 2023, 02:38:40 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on January 25, 2023, 11:29:26 AMAnd, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

Sure but you don't always want to be in a position where in order to sign someone you're offering them the most money possible or the best possible chance to win.

That's fair. I just don't think the whole trying to get a player to waive a no trade/no move clause or moving them shortly before an extension kicks has much of an impact there, outside of some fairly extreme scenarios I don't know if we've ever seen play out - and we've seen teams do some crappy stuff to players.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Bill_Berg_is_sad

Quote from: bustaheims on January 25, 2023, 03:09:44 PM
Quote from: Nik on January 25, 2023, 02:38:40 PM
Quote from: bustaheims on January 25, 2023, 11:29:26 AMAnd, even then, it seems to fade away pretty quickly. Players are ultimately motivated by 3 things when it comes to new contracts - money, a chance to win, and being able to play close to their family. Everything else falls much lower down on the ladder.

Sure but you don't always want to be in a position where in order to sign someone you're offering them the most money possible or the best possible chance to win.

That's fair. I just don't think the whole trying to get a player to waive a no trade/no move clause or moving them shortly before an extension kicks has much of an impact there, outside of some fairly extreme scenarios I don't know if we've ever seen play out - and we've seen teams do some crappy stuff to players.

If it was clearly to make the team better, I doubt it would have much impact at all.