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What Now?

Started by hobarth, January 16, 2023, 02:56:13 PM

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hobarth, L K and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

OldTimeHockey


Guilt Trip


hobarth

Quote from: spiderbob on January 19, 2023, 02:20:53 PMPeople who DEMAND satisfaction from their sports teams should consider going to the movies instead. Sports don't work that way, especially in a hard cap, parity inclined league.

This is a forum, the purpose of a forum is to discuss/demand, in this particular case, the Leafs.

If you have this thought, what's your purpose for being here?

princedpw

The leafs lost in game 7 by a goal.  They just needed a lucky bounce.  Unfortunately, there's no guarantee they'll get one.

Nik

Quote from: hobarth on January 22, 2023, 12:47:50 PMThis is a forum, the purpose of a forum is to discuss/demand, in this particular case, the Leafs.

If you have this thought, what's your purpose for being here?

The purpose of a discussion forum is for discussion. To the extent that those discussions include demands is entirely optional and has nothing to do with the inherent purpose of a forum. It is entirely possible, although in fairness it took me a long time to manage this myself, to discuss the goings on of a sports team on and have a fairly even keel about the results.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bender

Quote from: hobarth on January 22, 2023, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: spiderbob on January 19, 2023, 02:20:53 PMPeople who DEMAND satisfaction from their sports teams should consider going to the movies instead. Sports don't work that way, especially in a hard cap, parity inclined league.

This is a forum, the purpose of a forum is to discuss/demand, in this particular case, the Leafs.

If you have this thought, what's your purpose for being here?
Quote from: hobarth on January 22, 2023, 12:47:50 PM
Quote from: spiderbob on January 19, 2023, 02:20:53 PMPeople who DEMAND satisfaction from their sports teams should consider going to the movies instead. Sports don't work that way, especially in a hard cap, parity inclined league.

This is a forum, the purpose of a forum is to discuss/demand, in this particular case, the Leafs.

If you have this thought, what's your purpose for being here?

Demand? Really?
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

hobarth

Quote from: Nik on January 22, 2023, 01:17:59 PM
Quote from: hobarth on January 22, 2023, 12:47:50 PMThis is a forum, the purpose of a forum is to discuss/demand, in this particular case, the Leafs.

If you have this thought, what's your purpose for being here?

The purpose of a discussion forum is for discussion. To the extent that those discussions include demands is entirely optional and has nothing to do with the inherent purpose of a forum. It is entirely possible, although in fairness it took me a long time to manage this myself, to discuss the goings on of a sports team on and have a fairly even keel about the results.

After every game TO loses against, say Mtl., fans express their displeasure with the obvious purpose of demanding things be done to improve the team. Demanding isn't logical but it's there, nothing about forums is logical, it's a place to express displeasure/hopes for what's going on at any given time.

TO is in a truly difficult time, the talent is excellent but obviously not enough to expect much beyond the regular season, Dubie with some creative moves could possibly shore up the team giving it a much better immediate future but the long range future could be the cost. Chicago, now, is probably what TO can expect to become in the near future, if TO goes all in, Cupless is probably the result if TO doesn't go all in. Hopefully TO will also have at least one Cup.

I expect Matthews will want say 16 mil. per, Mitch too, Nylander will expect 10 mil. and with JT still with TO, one or two of those players will have to go. TO has been able to keep the 4 but they haven't accomplished what many have thought they should, would it even be worthwhile to try to keep them together?

I see things like the broadcast will say TO's puck possession in the OZ is 10 minutes in a game and the opposition's time is 5 minutes but I often don't feel that's what I'm seeing, I know no matter who TO plays if TO has a serious advantage in the number of shots in the 1st period, things will even out pretty much during the game, shot attempts mean nothing to me, actual shots on goal are a far better barometer of what's happening.

I don't see a killer instinct in TO now and TO hasn't been able to seal the deal even when playing well and having a healthy lead in playoff series, that needs to change now or I expect we will be seeing the end of the Matthews/Marner era with nothing to show for it. Shoring up the roster for the upcoming playoffs is something I think needs to be done if we are to expect any change in the results.

Expressing an interest in TO's change of approach to the upcoming playoffs is a demand by any other word, it's the same thing, fans are demanding, jeering when a goalie makes a save during a bad game is a demand by fans for better, booing during a poorly played PP is a demand for better, we fans have a right to demand, it's nothing to be ashamed of, it's the nature of fandom. Forums are patronized by the ever optimistic with their views/demands the foundation of their optimism.     

Bender

Is this just a long form version of the armchair gm thread? I'm confused.

The team is having a pretty good season. I'm ok with sending a first and Robertson off for an infusion of high talent. I don't think this forum has ever been overly optimistic, just that some understand the rationale of what they're doing. I would've preferred some head rolling after the Habs loss but it didn't happen, whatever. The team either wins a round this year or major changes are coming this year. I don't think they'll have enough depth with JT on the roster generally.

I think we all want the team to win and we all have opinions on that, but I'm not going to worry too much about things beyond my control on the long term before this season plays out.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

L K

I'd be kind of surprised if Robertson brings much value in a trade at this point.  He's an undersized played with 7 points in 31 games in the NHL and 46 points over three small chunks of AHL time (51 games).

He's young and is set back significantly on his development curve but I think his value is going to be a lot closer to Connor Timmins than something that gets a big return at the deadline.  Robertson's value is going to be low right now and his value will be higher to the Leafs staying with the organization and spending a full year in the AHL next year getting stronger.

bustaheims

Quote from: L K on January 23, 2023, 08:41:28 AMI'd be kind of surprised if Robertson brings much value in a trade at this point.  He's an undersized played with 7 points in 31 games in the NHL and 46 points over three small chunks of AHL time (51 games).

He's young and is set back significantly on his development curve but I think his value is going to be a lot closer to Connor Timmins than something that gets a big return at the deadline.  Robertson's value is going to be low right now and his value will be higher to the Leafs staying with the organization and spending a full year in the AHL next year getting stronger.

I don't know if his value has dropped that much yet, considering he's still only 21. Probably closer to Timmins in the Kuemper trade than what the Leafs got him for - a significant but secondary piece.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

L K

Quote from: bustaheims on January 23, 2023, 09:09:39 AM
Quote from: L K on January 23, 2023, 08:41:28 AMI'd be kind of surprised if Robertson brings much value in a trade at this point.  He's an undersized played with 7 points in 31 games in the NHL and 46 points over three small chunks of AHL time (51 games).

He's young and is set back significantly on his development curve but I think his value is going to be a lot closer to Connor Timmins than something that gets a big return at the deadline.  Robertson's value is going to be low right now and his value will be higher to the Leafs staying with the organization and spending a full year in the AHL next year getting stronger.

I don't know if his value has dropped that much yet, considering he's still only 21. Probably closer to Timmins in the Kuemper trade than what the Leafs got him for - a significant but secondary piece.

I guess? I mean Timmins was traded when he was 22.  Definitely had injury concerns but also was a 2nd round pick RHD with the prototypical big body that can skate frame.  Even then he was still just part of a 1st + 3rd + Timmins for Kuemper trade (obviously a good goalie and it worked out for Colorado).

How much value is Robertson going to provide at the deadline when prices escalate?  I still really like him as a prospect but I really can't see an injured player boosting a trade all that much.

bustaheims

Quote from: L K on January 23, 2023, 11:19:12 AMHow much value is Robertson going to provide at the deadline when prices escalate?  I still really like him as a prospect but I really can't see an injured player boosting a trade all that much.

Selling teams are generally less concerned about how the pieces they acquire will help out this season, so, Robertson's injury isn't as much as a factor as it would be for a straight hockey deal with another playoff team. I'm not saying he'll provide huge value, but he has more value than the basically zero that Timmins had when Arizona gave him to the Leafs.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Nik

Quote from: hobarth on January 23, 2023, 02:56:37 AMAfter every game TO loses against, say Mtl., fans express their displeasure with the obvious purpose of demanding things be done to improve the team. Demanding isn't logical but it's there, nothing about forums is logical, it's a place to express displeasure/hopes for what's going on at any given time.     

I think this fundamentally misunderstands what the word demand means in a pretty drastic way. The only way someone can "demand" something meaningfully is if there are consequences for the demandee if they don't deliver. Likewise, the person making demands will only be acquiesced to if those consequences seem worse to the person with the power to give in to them than the alternative.

Within regards to sports fandom. These "demands" are almost entirely hollow. We have no power to demand change and the consequences for teams for ignoring them are more or less non-existent. Fans might want change after a loss but there are no conditions attached. If changes don't materialize people here don't stop being fans. The idea of a fan demand is akin to the idea that Zach Aston-Reese will, next time his contract is being negotiated, "demand" 10 million dollars a year. He can make that demand all he wants but he will be ignored. The difference between a request and a demand is power. Fans have no power short of withholding their fandom and I think it's safe to say around here that if that were a real threat for any of us we'd have reached it by now.

The purpose of this discussion forum, what it's been traditionally, has been to discuss among ourselves with the the how's and the why's of the team making changes. Would Player X be better than Player Y in Position Z or which player should the team draft or any one of a thousand other things that neither are predicated on the illusion that fans have any power to "demand" anything nor do they require any particular level of emotional investment. Lots of posters here do and always have discussed things reasonably and intelligently and there have also been those who seem to be very angry when this hockey team loses games. To the extent that a "demand" simply constitutes a suggestion made at a particular volume level or with a certain lack of perspective behind it not only makes the concept largely meaningless it also is emphatically, as I said before, neither mandatory nor even all that common. Lots of people can and do talk about the team calmly. 
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bill_Berg_is_sad

I vowed to not spend a nickel on the NHL for eight years after the lockout od 2012, and to the best of my knowledge, I haven't. I extended it until the Leafs win the Cup after the Montreal debacle. I demand a Leafs Cup or I will not intentionally spend money on anything NHL. I don't count time as money, and if my free path to TSN and Sportsnet goes south, I may have to rescind.

hobarth

We can make demands while also being calm, the question is can we be calm if TO loses in the 1st round again this year after Dubie does nothing to significantly improve a roster that absolutely requires a massive infusion of talent and character.

I've lived thru the years since TO's last Cup, I don't know if I will be able to survive another rebuild that might give TO another truly competitive team. TO isn't truly competitive now but can be with some of the pieces already here.

Sometimes Dubie reminds me of supervisors, they can move pieces/employees around just to make it look like they're doing something while also carrying a clip board. Placing Hunt on Waivers, is good, but he should also place Jarnkrok, ZAR, Kerfoot, Kampf and Brodie on waivers, that could potentially clear 13 mil. in Cap space and then use any extra Cap dollars on players that can help instead of just treading water. Rielly should simply be traded because maybe some other team will see some value in him, his greatest value, I'm told, is on the PP, that's why TO was trying, going with 5 forwards and I don't doubt that Timmins could more than adequately replace him in every way.