2023 Blue Jays thread

[azzurri63]

I think management needs to get on Guerrero and Kirk and tell them to get in shape. Athletes nowadays are coddled way too much. Vladdy came into spring training 2 years ago in great shape, weight down and he had a decent season. This year back to his old self.

[Arn]

This is quite a well written piece for those with an Athletic subscription.

https://theathletic.com/4935886/2023/10/06/mlb-managers-analytics-bad-calls/

Basically saying that analytics have a place but shouldn't be the be all and end all and players and manager should be able to react on "feel" to situations and not be afraid to go with it.

It gives Counsell as an example where he stuck with someone when the analytics probably suggested taking them out. And they lost. But makes the point that the players have more trust in that system and that trust between players and management builds a better atmosphere and culture.

Some of the quotes from Jays players certainly suggest a lack of belief and trust in management (and particularly the Berrios decision) and I wonder if that has had some kind of underlying effect over the course of the year and might explain why they never looked to be as loose and having as much fun as prior years.

[Joe]

That's interesting and all, and as much as I thought pulling Berrios was asinine, this is not the reason they lost the game.

[IJustLurkHere]

Note: John Schneider's decision to pull Berrios in the bottom of the 4th is an absolute headscratcher.

Everything I'm reading seems to suggest this was a pre-planned move agreed with the wider management group based on data.

Now, I'm all for using data to help. But you know, I was watching the game and could see how Berios looked as well...

Yea, I mean I always cringe when I hear the term "Analytics" negatively thrown around and mocked by people who don't understand that it's basically just the idea of looking at more, in-depth information. You should always want to have more than less information. It's the interpretation and utilization of that information that's the problem. If the data says that the more a pitcher goes through a lineup the more susceptible he becomes, that is good information to have and you can act on it accordingly. It absolutely never means take out a pitcher who is dialed in and mowing through batters after 47 pitchers because its the 2nd time facing a lefthanded batter.

Interesting how this has become a narrative. Honestly... Berrios wasn't pitching THAT well. He'd struck out the side the inning before, but that was 8, 9, 1. Boosted his Ks to look good. He'd given up a hit every inning, including to Correa who was on deck when they made the change. He'd just walked the leadoff man.

Don't love the change, but I get giving the ball to Kikuchi in the situation.

[L K]

Note: John Schneider's decision to pull Berrios in the bottom of the 4th is an absolute headscratcher.

Everything I'm reading seems to suggest this was a pre-planned move agreed with the wider management group based on data.

Now, I'm all for using data to help. But you know, I was watching the game and could see how Berios looked as well...

Yea, I mean I always cringe when I hear the term "Analytics" negatively thrown around and mocked by people who don't understand that it's basically just the idea of looking at more, in-depth information. You should always want to have more than less information. It's the interpretation and utilization of that information that's the problem. If the data says that the more a pitcher goes through a lineup the more susceptible he becomes, that is good information to have and you can act on it accordingly. It absolutely never means take out a pitcher who is dialed in and mowing through batters after 47 pitchers because its the 2nd time facing a lefthanded batter.

Interesting how this has become a narrative. Honestly... Berrios wasn't pitching THAT well. He'd struck out the side the inning before, but that was 8, 9, 1. Boosted his Ks to look good. He'd given up a hit every inning, including to Correa who was on deck when they made the change. He'd just walked the leadoff man.

Don't love the change, but I get giving the ball to Kikuchi in the situation.

Kikuchi in September pitched to a 5.02 ERA and 1.465 WHIP.  He wasn't pitching well down the stretch.  I think Kikuchi should have been one of the last guys out of the pen in a tight game.

[Bender]

Note: John Schneider's decision to pull Berrios in the bottom of the 4th is an absolute headscratcher.

Everything I'm reading seems to suggest this was a pre-planned move agreed with the wider management group based on data.

Now, I'm all for using data to help. But you know, I was watching the game and could see how Berios looked as well...

Yea, I mean I always cringe when I hear the term "Analytics" negatively thrown around and mocked by people who don't understand that it's basically just the idea of looking at more, in-depth information. You should always want to have more than less information. It's the interpretation and utilization of that information that's the problem. If the data says that the more a pitcher goes through a lineup the more susceptible he becomes, that is good information to have and you can act on it accordingly. It absolutely never means take out a pitcher who is dialed in and mowing through batters after 47 pitchers because its the 2nd time facing a lefthanded batter.

Interesting how this has become a narrative. Honestly... Berrios wasn't pitching THAT well. He'd struck out the side the inning before, but that was 8, 9, 1. Boosted his Ks to look good. He'd given up a hit every inning, including to Correa who was on deck when they made the change. He'd just walked the leadoff man.

Don't love the change, but I get giving the ball to Kikuchi in the situation.

Some would argue walking the leadoff player who is probably their best power hitter isn't really a problem though.

[Bill_Berg_is_pissed_off]

Note: John Schneider's decision to pull Berrios in the bottom of the 4th is an absolute headscratcher.

Everything I'm reading seems to suggest this was a pre-planned move agreed with the wider management group based on data.

Now, I'm all for using data to help. But you know, I was watching the game and could see how Berios looked as well...

Yea, I mean I always cringe when I hear the term "Analytics" negatively thrown around and mocked by people who don't understand that it's basically just the idea of looking at more, in-depth information. You should always want to have more than less information. It's the interpretation and utilization of that information that's the problem. If the data says that the more a pitcher goes through a lineup the more susceptible he becomes, that is good information to have and you can act on it accordingly. It absolutely never means take out a pitcher who is dialed in and mowing through batters after 47 pitchers because its the 2nd time facing a lefthanded batter.

Interesting how this has become a narrative. Honestly... Berrios wasn't pitching THAT well. He'd struck out the side the inning before, but that was 8, 9, 1. Boosted his Ks to look good. He'd given up a hit every inning, including to Correa who was on deck when they made the change. He'd just walked the leadoff man.

Don't love the change, but I get giving the ball to Kikuchi in the situation.

Some would argue walking the leadoff player who is probably their best power hitter isn't really a problem though.

They scored 1 run in 18 innings.  Pitching wasn't the problem.

[OldTimeHockey]

I don't think anyone is saying that pitching was/is the problem. People are saying that management decisions is the problem. Yes, the focus is on the Berrios pulling but management of the bench was a problem several times this season.

[Arn]

I don't think anyone is saying that pitching was/is the problem. People are saying that management decisions is the problem. Yes, the focus is on the Berrios pulling but management of the bench was a problem several times this season.

Correct. And postulating that the management was thus having an impact on the hitting as it was having negative impacts on the psyche of the players.

And from what I watched of the team as I've said they seemed to have lost the "looseness" that characterised the offence. If they are uptight they are likely to hit and run less well.

This specific decision has just kind of been a final tipping point to really kick off the discussion and I think there is potentially something to it.

[IJustLurkHere]

Yea, I mean I always cringe when I hear the term "Analytics" negatively thrown around and mocked by people who don't understand that it's basically just the idea of looking at more, in-depth information. You should always want to have more than less information. It's the interpretation and utilization of that information that's the problem. If the data says that the more a pitcher goes through a lineup the more susceptible he becomes, that is good information to have and you can act on it accordingly. It absolutely never means take out a pitcher who is dialed in and mowing through batters after 47 pitchers because its the 2nd time facing a lefthanded batter.

Interesting how this has become a narrative. Honestly... Berrios wasn't pitching THAT well. He'd struck out the side the inning before, but that was 8, 9, 1. Boosted his Ks to look good. He'd given up a hit every inning, including to Correa who was on deck when they made the change. He'd just walked the leadoff man.

Don't love the change, but I get giving the ball to Kikuchi in the situation.

Some would argue walking the leadoff player who is probably their best power hitter isn't really a problem though.

And that's a valid argument. My point is really only that following the media, you'd think this was a repeat of Blake Snell in the World Series and it isn't. You've got a man on first, nobody out, Kepler and Correa (who already has a hit) coming up and a pregame plan that says you're going to piggyback Kikuchi. I don't necessarily love the plan itself (though I'm entirely willing to believe that the Jays have numbers that say the percentages fall better than way), but if that is the plan, I don't think Berrios was throwing so well that you had to abandon it.

[herman]

Someone explain why the Jays shouldn't throw open the vault doors at Rogers for Shohei Otani

Because I can only see upside (and my renewed interest in the Jays).

[Arn]

I've read that they're a "sleeper" in terms of getting him, but they should absolutely be all in. Even if he can't pitch next season his bat immediately takes the team up a notch.