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Federal Election 2019

Started by Nik, October 21, 2019, 09:17:39 PM

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Nik

#120
Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 03:59:35 PMIt's highly doubtful that person will lead the party in the near future.

That's the point busta and Bender are making. By effectively saying that the CPC isn't the place for people who are socially liberal but in favour of generally right-wing fiscal policies the party is alienating a large number of voters.

edit: Which, of course, is not the only thing a Conservative party can be. The PC's of the 90's were effectively that nationally. Rejecting the sort of nationalist populism Bender objected to is eminently possible while still remaining "conservative" by any reasonable definition of the word. You just have to run elections on trying to convince people of conservative ideology and policy vs. what we've seen of late.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bates

Quote from: Nik on August 26, 2020, 04:08:33 PM
Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 03:59:35 PMIt's highly doubtful that person will lead the party in the near future.

That's the point busta and Bender are making. By effectively saying that the CPC isn't the place for people who are socially liberal but in favour of generally right-wing fiscal policies the party is alienating a large number of voters.

But if they go the other direction how would that not equally alienate a lot of their voters? They had the most party votes last time around.

Nik

Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 04:15:20 PM
But if they go the other direction how would that not equally alienate a lot of their voters? They had the most party votes last time around.

I'm sure it would alienate some voters but that inherently reveals why the Conservatives have such an uphill battle in trying to win National elections. By fusing the PC party and the Reform/Alliance/Whatever they were calling themselves the Conservatives were trying to build a coalition of hard right reactionaries as well as Red Tories or whatever and we're seeing the cracks of that coalition as it comes to actually getting votes.

Getting the most votes among all of the parties isn't a huge accomplishment when there's one party for people right of centre and 4 centre-left or left wing parties. Actually forming a government will require the Conservatives to actually grow their numbers to an electable number and they can't do that by moving further to the right. 66% of the country was to the Left of the CPC in the last election. Until they try to do something about that, they're going to be in opposition.

Regardless though, all Bender said was that he wanted the CPC to reject populist demagoguery in favour of a more moderate conservatism. You can disagree with that as electoral strategy if you want but if you're saying that anyone who did that wouldn't really be a conservative you're effectively tying the entire conservative movement as an ideology to nationalist populism which, again, seems like a bad strategy even before we get to how repulsive it is to a lot of people on its actual merits.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bates

Quote from: Nik on August 26, 2020, 04:26:56 PM
Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 04:15:20 PM
But if they go the other direction how would that not equally alienate a lot of their voters? They had the most party votes last time around.

I'm sure it would alienate some voters but that inherently reveals why the Conservatives have such an uphill battle in trying to win National elections. By fusing the PC party and the Reform/Alliance/Whatever they were calling themselves the Conservatives were trying to build a coalition of hard right reactionaries as well as Red Tories or whatever and we're seeing the cracks of that coalition as it comes to actually getting votes.

Getting the most votes among all of the parties isn't a huge accomplishment when there's one party for people right of centre and 4 centre-left or left wing parties. Actually forming a government will require the Conservatives to actually grow their numbers to an electable number and they can't do that by moving further to the right. 66% of the country was to the Left of the CPC in the last election. Until they try to do something about that, they're going to be in opposition.

Regardless though, all Bender said was that he wanted the CPC to reject populist demagoguery in favour of a more moderate conservatism. You can disagree with that as electoral strategy if you want but if you're saying that anyone who did that wouldn't really be a conservative you're effectively tying the entire conservative movement as an ideology to nationalist populism which, again, seems like a bad strategy even before we get to how repulsive it is to a lot of people on its actual merits.

Bender said they did not elect a leader that would win him to their side.  I simply replied that from my reading that would require them to go from the right to the left and i don't see how that makes sense? Why would they cross over the threshold and compete for voters when they don't have that much less chance of attracting voters who are fed up with the Liberals? Turn Quebec and the CPC are the Govt.

Nik

Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 05:45:20 PM
Bender said they did not elect a leader that would win him to their side. I simply replied that from my reading that would require them to go from the right to the left and i don't see how that makes sense?

Right and what people then tried to say is that rejecting nationalist populism is not going "to the left" but rather embracing what the Conservative party used to be, which would be appealing to moderate voters, of which there are many. 

Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 05:45:20 PM
Why would they cross over the threshold and compete for voters when they don't have that much less chance of attracting voters who are fed up with the Liberals? Turn Quebec and the CPC are the Govt.

I mean, leaving aside the fact that this sort of thing is really ugly and leads to a lot of anger and division? I think a lot of people would say that there's a much better chance of the CPC winning over some moderate votes in Ontario where they were down 8 points to the Liberals and got 1/3rd of the votes than trying to make up ground in Quebec where they finished a very distant third, which was actually an improvement over 2015.

When the Conservatives were actually winning governments it was with seats in Ontario. I'd have to check but I don't think the Conservatives have won a significant number of Quebec seats since the BQ became a meaningful entity.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bender

Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 05:45:20 PM
Quote from: Nik on August 26, 2020, 04:26:56 PM
Quote from: Bates on August 26, 2020, 04:15:20 PM
But if they go the other direction how would that not equally alienate a lot of their voters? They had the most party votes last time around.

I'm sure it would alienate some voters but that inherently reveals why the Conservatives have such an uphill battle in trying to win National elections. By fusing the PC party and the Reform/Alliance/Whatever they were calling themselves the Conservatives were trying to build a coalition of hard right reactionaries as well as Red Tories or whatever and we're seeing the cracks of that coalition as it comes to actually getting votes.

Getting the most votes among all of the parties isn't a huge accomplishment when there's one party for people right of centre and 4 centre-left or left wing parties. Actually forming a government will require the Conservatives to actually grow their numbers to an electable number and they can't do that by moving further to the right. 66% of the country was to the Left of the CPC in the last election. Until they try to do something about that, they're going to be in opposition.

Regardless though, all Bender said was that he wanted the CPC to reject populist demagoguery in favour of a more moderate conservatism. You can disagree with that as electoral strategy if you want but if you're saying that anyone who did that wouldn't really be a conservative you're effectively tying the entire conservative movement as an ideology to nationalist populism which, again, seems like a bad strategy even before we get to how repulsive it is to a lot of people on its actual merits.

Bender said they did not elect a leader that would win him to their side.  I simply replied that from my reading that would require them to go from the right to the left and i don't see how that makes sense? Why would they cross over the threshold and compete for voters when they don't have that much less chance of attracting voters who are fed up with the Liberals? Turn Quebec and the CPC are the Govt.

You don't know me or my voting patterns. I think making that judgment of me is wrong.

My philosophy is every government has its day in power and sometimes you need to vote them out. This is true on every political level. I have voted for every political party depending on how far I think the pendulum has swung. I have no problem voting for Conservatives or conservative values, I just personally don't think conservative values are "Taking Canada back" and other bull#$#% slogans that have pushed the right from centre-right to far right populist nonsense. I've been a student of history long enough to know statements like these and going down the path of populism is not a path the country should go down.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Nik


First post-O'Toole CP poll and while the Liberals are down a bit to 35, the Conservatives are also down 1 to 29. The NDP is up three.

I think that's a good reflection of what I was saying. The Liberals have dropped by as much as 11 points since their lockdown-era high and the Conservatives still seem to have a hard cap in the low 30's. I'm they think O'Toole will, in the months ahead, really win over Canada because he's such a dynamic personality(lol) but the quicker they accept that most of the country just isn't interested in what they're selling the better off they'll be.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Frank E

Quote from: Nik on September 01, 2020, 07:29:07 PM

First post-O'Toole CP poll and while the Liberals are down a bit to 35, the Conservatives are also down 1 to 29. The NDP is up three.

I think that's a good reflection of what I was saying. The Liberals have dropped by as much as 11 points since their lockdown-era high and the Conservatives still seem to have a hard cap in the low 30's. I'm they think O'Toole will, in the months ahead, really win over Canada because he's such a dynamic personality(lol) but the quicker they accept that most of the country just isn't interested in what they're selling the better off they'll be.

I don't know how MacKay blew this.

O'Toole had best leverage Leslyn Lewis if he wants a shot at being the next PM.

Nik

Quote from: Frank E on September 02, 2020, 10:42:24 AM
I don't know how MacKay blew this.

O'Toole had best leverage Leslyn Lewis if he wants a shot at being the next PM.

But I think that highlights the problem. One of the reasons Mackay "blew" it is because he acknowledged that a lot of the CPC's base of social conservatives and their desire to see their beliefs reflected in the party's platform makes it  very difficult to appeal to more moderate voters. Making Lewis a prominent voice in the party seems to lean into that difficulty. I don't think it's mitigated just on the basis of her being a woman of colour when her actual policies are firmly on the party's right.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Nik


Well, looks like there won't be a fall election after all. Which, let's be honest, would have been a lousy thing to try and organize during the second wave of the pandemic. I would have liked to have seen the NDP get a little more for their support but ultimately I'd have been even more upset if they hadn't figured out a way to avoid an unnecessary election.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Nik


Here is the hip, exciting fresh new face of modern conservatism writing about how our democratically elected Prime Minister enacting middle of the road Neoliberal policy amounts to, and I'm quoting here, a "socialist coup"

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/leslyn-lewis-there-is-a-socialist-coup-unfolding-in-canada?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Twitter#Echobox=1601672441
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Nik


So anyone else kind of happy to be living in a country whose craziest political scandal is about what sort of symbolic decorations are allowed to be worn by employees of overpriced grocery stores?
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Hobbes

Quote from: Nik on November 06, 2020, 05:15:32 PM

So anyone else kind of happy to be living in a country whose craziest political scandal is about what sort of symbolic decorations are allowed to be worn by employees of overpriced grocery stores?
I guess that's the advantage of a 3-party system...they jostle for position around what they perceive as the middle of Canadians' views rather than edge further and further towards the extremes.
It's not denial...I'm just very selective about the reality I accept.

herman

#27 #TeamFasstholes

Frank E

Quote from: Nik on November 06, 2020, 05:15:32 PM

So anyone else kind of happy to be living in a country whose craziest political scandal is about what sort of symbolic decorations are allowed to be worn by employees of overpriced grocery stores?

Elected Officials were tripping over themselves racing to condemn the "US based" business...I got a real kick out of the whole thing.  Even Ford wanting to table legislation banning their ban...he was ready to outban Whole Foods.

The message was clear:  Do not F with the Poppy.

Anyway, I guess all the hullabaloo made them change the policy.