Quick links:  Login  |  Sign up  |  Site Rules  |  Support TMLfans

PHIL KESSEL WINS STANLEY CUP

Started by disco, June 13, 2016, 12:17:05 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.


Zee

He really should have gotten the Conn Smythe too.

CarltonTheBear


CarltonTheBear

#3
Quote from: Zee on June 13, 2016, 08:29:31 AM
He really should have gotten the Conn Smythe too.

Yeah, I don't want to say that Crosby didn't deserve it but I feel like he won it for reasons that generally aren't given much consideration when it comes to the Conn Smythe. Because if they were then there's no way Justin Williams would have won it over Anze Kopitar last time LA won. So it just seems awful convenient that the voters changed their criteria when Phil was up for the award.

Nik

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 13, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Yeah, I don't want to say that Crosby didn't deserve it but I feel like he won it for reasons that generally aren't given much consideration generally when it comes to the Conn Smythe. Because if they were then there's no way Justin Williams would have won it over Anze Kopitar last time LA won. So it just seems awful convenient that the voters changed their criteria when Phil was up for the award.

Admittedly I don't know if the composition in voters is similar from year to year but even if it were I think the Williams decision was generally pretty terrible so I'd hate to think it would be used as a binding future precedent.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

bustaheims

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 13, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Yeah, I don't want to say that Crosby didn't deserve it but I feel like he won it for reasons that generally aren't given much consideration generally when it comes to the Conn Smythe. Because if they were then there's no way Justin Williams would have won it over Anze Kopitar last time LA won. So it just seems awful convenient that the voters changed their criteria when Phil was up for the award.

I read somewhere that it was the first time in more than 30 years that a forward who didn't lead his team in playoff points won the award (though, clearly, whoever wrote that forgot about Williams beating Kopitar). Crosby definitely did more of the little things to help his team win, but, like you said, it does feel awfully convenient that the criteria changed this year.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

CarltonTheBear

Apparently there isn't any footage of Phil and Reimer in the handshake line. What the hell TV producers?

Nik

Quote from: bustaheims on June 13, 2016, 08:59:39 AM
I read somewhere that it was the first time in more than 30 years that a forward who didn't lead his team in playoff points won the award (though, clearly, whoever wrote that forgot about Williams beating Kopitar).

Just off the top of my head it's also not true of Nieuwendyk's win in '99 or Lemieux in '95.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Crucialness Key

Quote from: CarltonTheBear on June 13, 2016, 08:46:35 AM
Quote from: Zee on June 13, 2016, 08:29:31 AM
He really should have gotten the Conn Smythe too.

Yeah, I don't want to say that Crosby didn't deserve it but I feel like he won it for reasons that generally aren't given much consideration when it comes to the Conn Smythe. Because if they were then there's no way Justin Williams would have won it over Anze Kopitar last time LA won. So it just seems awful convenient that the voters changed their criteria when Phil was up for the award.

To me it feels more like the criteria changed to benefit Crosby, not so much to hurt Phil.  If Crosby already had a Conn Smythe, I think Phil would have got it this year.

jdh1

Hooray for Phil Kessel....he must of read my posts because he did do a great job in the playoffs.I was very critical of him when he left the Leafs,but hats off to him right now.

herman

[tweet]742191191735705600[/tweet]
"Can't let the poison get to you"
#BeBlessed #scumbag

bustaheims

Quote from: Nik the Trik on June 13, 2016, 09:04:47 AM
Just off the top of my head it's also not true of Nieuwendyk's win in '99 or Lemieux in '95.

Yeah. Whoever posted that clearly didn't do their research.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Bullfrog

Happy for him; such a talented player.

Nik

I think it's a really tough question all things considered. On the one hand, Kessel's higher goal/point totals in significantly less playing time is a pretty strong argument based on precedent.

On the other hand, I find it really hard to accept that if you took the names off of each player's stat line and presented it to someone who hadn't watched the games that 3 more points over 24 games told enough of a story to make a definitive statement. Almost all of the peripheral concepts(possession, defensive play, face-offs, positional importance and, ugh, leadership) favour Crosby and he did it while undeniably playing against tougher opposition. Do three points outweigh all that?

And then on the third hand, Kris Letang played almost 29 minutes a night on a defense that was lousy aside from him and put up points/did an incredible job keeping the other team in check. The Sharks averaged 23 shots a night in the finals.

I don't think any of the three are an easy or obvious choice. Ultimately I think what hurt Phil's case more than any sort of shifting criteria was just the fact that the final series was so low scoring. If the Penguins had won on the basis of their fire power it would be easier to argue for the highest scorer. But Kessel being held to one goal and four points in the finals and the general dominance of Pittsburgh really made a case for them winning on possession/defense and that wasn't his strongest suit.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

CarltonTheBear

To me the true MVP of the Penguins playoffs was the entire HBK line. They finished 1-2-3 in 5-on-5 scoring, and in all situations they finished 1-3-5. Their 5-on-5 GF% was a combined 65% (Phil's personal one was 66.7%). And while yes Crosby was facing the top defensive pairing every night, they were still usually going up against the 2nd best pairings on playoff teams. So it's not like they were facing chump change every night. Those results, especially the GF%, are still incredibly impressive regardless of the situation. Crosby was actually outscored during 5-on-5 play 15 to 18.