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The Special Teams

Started by Peter D., October 25, 2011, 10:33:14 AM

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BillyD

Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on November 10, 2011, 09:50:51 AM
Quote from: Bender on November 10, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on November 09, 2011, 08:44:06 PM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 08, 2011, 06:19:54 AM
Quote from: drummond on November 03, 2011, 12:29:15 PM
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2011/11/03/the-real-penalty-killing-problems/

good read and visual explanation why the Leafs have such problems to kill a penalty

QuoteGreg Cronin did coach the best NCAA penalty kill ever

Did not know that.

Hmmm...makes me think that the only similarity between the NCAA and the NHL is the 'N'.

::)

If that's the case then how do coaches break into the NHL? They don't start at the NHL level. Give some credit where it's due. Jeez, a two game losing streak and you'd think everyone in our organization had the aptitude of Reggie Dunlop.

If I am going to give credit where credit is due, then I also have to be critical of something that is not working, and the Leafs penalty killing is not working.  That's great about his accomplishment last year in a developmental league.  Doesn't help the Leafs today.

I find it interesting that the Marlies have the best PK in the AHL.Only 6 goals allowed in 64 times shorthand . Rather impressive. Maybe The Leafs should watch and learn.

Stebro

What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

Potvin29

Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 09:16:33 AM
What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

How can a new assistant coach be too stubborn to make changes when they weren't here for the stuff that was going wrong before?  I thought that Cronin was working on the Leafs PK according to a Globe & Mail article recently.  I doubt he's going to agree to come in and just follow what was going on the last couple seasons.

Bender

Quote from: Potvin29 on November 15, 2011, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 09:16:33 AM
What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

How can a new assistant coach be too stubborn to make changes when they weren't here for the stuff that was going wrong before?  I thought that Cronin was working on the Leafs PK according to a Globe & Mail article recently.  I doubt he's going to agree to come in and just follow what was going on the last couple seasons.

I think right now we're suffering under "welostagameitis." If we go on a hot streak people will be singing coaching's praises like they did when we were briefly first in the league.

Right now people are trying to find ways to logically justify that everything about our coaching staff and management team sucks, regardless of not knowing what actually goes on first hand. I think collectively people are pissy because they were given such strong hope that the team was finally the best and we've actually fallen back down to reality.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Zid

Quote from: BillyD on November 15, 2011, 08:47:47 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on November 10, 2011, 09:50:51 AM
Quote from: Bender on November 10, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on November 09, 2011, 08:44:06 PM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 08, 2011, 06:19:54 AM
Quote from: drummond on November 03, 2011, 12:29:15 PM
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2011/11/03/the-real-penalty-killing-problems/

good read and visual explanation why the Leafs have such problems to kill a penalty

QuoteGreg Cronin did coach the best NCAA penalty kill ever

Did not know that.

Hmmm...makes me think that the only similarity between the NCAA and the NHL is the 'N'.

::)

If that's the case then how do coaches break into the NHL? They don't start at the NHL level. Give some credit where it's due. Jeez, a two game losing streak and you'd think everyone in our organization had the aptitude of Reggie Dunlop.

If I am going to give credit where credit is due, then I also have to be critical of something that is not working, and the Leafs penalty killing is not working.  That's great about his accomplishment last year in a developmental league.  Doesn't help the Leafs today.

I find it interesting that the Marlies have the best PK in the AHL.Only 6 goals allowed in 64 times shorthand . Rather impressive. Maybe The Leafs should watch and learn.

The Marlies have been getting excellent goal tending. I think that has something to do with it.

Bender

Quote from: Mikhail Bloodnovsky on November 15, 2011, 10:00:44 AM
Quote from: BillyD on November 15, 2011, 08:47:47 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on November 10, 2011, 09:50:51 AM
Quote from: Bender on November 10, 2011, 09:44:02 AM
Quote from: Significantly Insignificant on November 09, 2011, 08:44:06 PM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 08, 2011, 06:19:54 AM
Quote from: drummond on November 03, 2011, 12:29:15 PM
http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2011/11/03/the-real-penalty-killing-problems/

good read and visual explanation why the Leafs have such problems to kill a penalty

QuoteGreg Cronin did coach the best NCAA penalty kill ever

Did not know that.

Hmmm...makes me think that the only similarity between the NCAA and the NHL is the 'N'.

::)

If that's the case then how do coaches break into the NHL? They don't start at the NHL level. Give some credit where it's due. Jeez, a two game losing streak and you'd think everyone in our organization had the aptitude of Reggie Dunlop.

If I am going to give credit where credit is due, then I also have to be critical of something that is not working, and the Leafs penalty killing is not working.  That's great about his accomplishment last year in a developmental league.  Doesn't help the Leafs today.

I find it interesting that the Marlies have the best PK in the AHL.Only 6 goals allowed in 64 times shorthand . Rather impressive. Maybe The Leafs should watch and learn.

The Marlies have been getting excellent goal tending. I think that has something to do with it.

While I agree their special teams are doing a better job, their standings haven't improved despite their strong PK, which is kind of interesting that everyone here is clamouring that if we fix the PK all our problems will be solved.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Stebro

Quote from: Potvin29 on November 15, 2011, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 09:16:33 AM
What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

How can a new assistant coach be too stubborn to make changes when they weren't here for the stuff that was going wrong before?  I thought that Cronin was working on the Leafs PK according to a Globe & Mail article recently.  I doubt he's going to agree to come in and just follow what was going on the last couple seasons.
And how is that coming along? Last in the league ;) It's a mystery really, because PK is a lot easier to become good at than the PP. Crappy teams can have great pk.

Bender

Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 15, 2011, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 09:16:33 AM
What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

How can a new assistant coach be too stubborn to make changes when they weren't here for the stuff that was going wrong before?  I thought that Cronin was working on the Leafs PK according to a Globe & Mail article recently.  I doubt he's going to agree to come in and just follow what was going on the last couple seasons.
And how is that coming along? Last in the league ;) It's a mystery really, because PK is a lot easier to become good at than the PP. Crappy teams can have great pk.

PK is easy if you have adequate goaltending like Minnesota, who's near last in PP and have only 39GF.

Ottawa's PP is 3rd in the league.

I would argue that having a good PK is reflective a lot more of good teams than bad. There are fewer bad teams with a top 15 PK than there are with a top 15 PP.
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender

Stebro

Quote from: Bender on November 15, 2011, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 15, 2011, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 09:16:33 AM
What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

How can a new assistant coach be too stubborn to make changes when they weren't here for the stuff that was going wrong before?  I thought that Cronin was working on the Leafs PK according to a Globe & Mail article recently.  I doubt he's going to agree to come in and just follow what was going on the last couple seasons.
And how is that coming along? Last in the league ;) It's a mystery really, because PK is a lot easier to become good at than the PP. Crappy teams can have great pk.

PK is easy if you have adequate goaltending like Minnesota, who's near last in PP and have only 39GF.

Ottawa's PP is 3rd in the league.

I would argue that having a good PK is reflective a lot more of good teams than bad. There are fewer bad teams with a top 15 PK than there are with a top 15 PP.
I don't think that the goaltending has been our main problem in the PK. It's players just standing around, and not clearing in front of the net. The mobility is like 0. Although it's been a bit better lately, but Ottawa are very good at the PP....so allowing goals vs them on the PP is something that most teams will do.

Bender

Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 11:50:29 AM
Quote from: Bender on November 15, 2011, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 10:34:03 AM
Quote from: Potvin29 on November 15, 2011, 09:38:36 AM
Quote from: Stebro on November 15, 2011, 09:16:33 AM
What bothers me about it all is that it seems as if the leafs aren't willing to make many changes. Sure new coaches but still the same problems remain. Imo the coaching staff is too stubborn, if you're model doesn't work you must try something else, you can't just keep on doing stuff bad and then convince youself that there's something else that is wrong other than the system. I mean could it really be that the goalies and players have been doing such a bad job year after year? Makes no sense at all.

How can a new assistant coach be too stubborn to make changes when they weren't here for the stuff that was going wrong before?  I thought that Cronin was working on the Leafs PK according to a Globe & Mail article recently.  I doubt he's going to agree to come in and just follow what was going on the last couple seasons.
And how is that coming along? Last in the league ;) It's a mystery really, because PK is a lot easier to become good at than the PP. Crappy teams can have great pk.

PK is easy if you have adequate goaltending like Minnesota, who's near last in PP and have only 39GF.

Ottawa's PP is 3rd in the league.

I would argue that having a good PK is reflective a lot more of good teams than bad. There are fewer bad teams with a top 15 PK than there are with a top 15 PP.
I don't think that the goaltending has been our main problem in the PK. It's players just standing around, and not clearing in front of the net. The mobility is like 0. Although it's been a bit better lately, but Ottawa are very good at the PP....so allowing goals vs them on the PP is something that most teams will do.

Harding and Backstrom are providing excellent goaltending for Minnesota, and they're not exactly a team overflowing with defensive talent or with a defensive system. On some level your goaltender needs to be at least average, period. The team can make you look better or worse, but the degree to which Gus and Scrivens are not playing well is not as much a reflection of the team, as they are just bad (Gus) or not ready (Scrivens).
"They say you can judge a man by the company he keeps. So here is the professor's oldest friend, a grotesque, stinking lobster." - Bender


L K

Quote from: Tigger on November 15, 2011, 07:08:54 PM
Hunter attributes the Leafs' terrible penalty killing to "lack of effort. We're using the same system we used in Washington when we set a record for the least power-play goals against and the same system we used to kill penalties when we were No. 1 in the league.

"It takes time and it takes willingness. It's sacrifice. It's blocked shots. It's getting underneath sticks. It's being aware where passes are going. It's boxing out guys around the net and competing."

...

"I don't know what style of penalty kill we could play with guys who aren't willing to compete and fit a style around that," Hunter said. "If you don't have guys willing to compete it doesn't matter."


Apologies for bringing Simmons into this but I thought those comments from Hunter were telling.

Not that I want to argue with Hunter too much, but who does that responsibility lie with.  It isn't like the Leafs have been icing the same roster for the past 4 years.  Burke/Wilson have had ample time to change the makeup of the lineup either through free agency or who makes the team out of camp.  4 years in a row of lazy players who won't compete, well, that's a tough one to not look at the coach and say, "what's up?".  Boyce left half his face on the ice for the team, which to me, would imply that kind of "compete" that Hunter is bemoaning, and he didn't seem remotely close to getting a shot to beat out Orr/Rosehill for a spot on the team because he isn't as much of a fighter. 

Some of that has to go on the coaches for not putting guys out on the PK who WILL do that kind of stuff.  BUt in general I agree to an extent, it seems like the Leafs PK runs along fine for stretches and then they make a mental lapse and stand around rather than working hard to regain position on a player, or forgot to stickcheck when a pass goes through the slot, or let a guy outmuscle you for the puck when you had a chance to clear the puck.  There are a lot of little "extra effort" plays that aren't really problems with the PK system, but I think it's a little more than try really hard and things happen.

Stebro

So it's been due to a lack of effort for the last couple of years :) Well that solves it all. By the way, the pk in Washington was that before all the rule changes etc? or after?

hockeyfan1

Quote from: L K on November 15, 2011, 09:53:28 PM
Quote from: Tigger on November 15, 2011, 07:08:54 PM
Hunter attributes the Leafs' terrible penalty killing to "lack of effort. We're using the same system we used in Washington when we set a record for the least power-play goals against and the same system we used to kill penalties when we were No. 1 in the league.

"It takes time and it takes willingness. It's sacrifice. It's blocked shots. It's getting
underneath sticks. It's being aware where passes are going. It's boxing out guys
around the net and competing."
..
"I don't know what style of penalty kill we could play with guys who aren't willing to compete and fit a style around that," Hunter said. "If you don't have guys
willing to compete it doesn't matter."


Apologies for bringing Simmons into this but I thought those comments from Hunter were telling.


Not that I want to argue with Hunter too much, but who does that responsibility lie
with.  It isn't like the Leafs have been icing the same roster for the past 4 years.
  Burke/Wilson have had ample time to change the makeup of the lineup either
through free agency or who makes the team out of camp.  4 years in a row of lazy
players who won't compete, well, that's a tough one to not look at the coach and
say, "what's up?".  Boyce left half his face on the ice for the team, which to me,
would imply that kind of "compete" that Hunter is bemoaning, and he didn't seem
remotely close to getting a shot to beat out Orr/Rosehill for a spot on the team
because he isn't as much of a fighter.
 
Some of that has to go on the coaches for not putting guys out on the PK who WILL do that kind of stuff.  BUt in general I agree to an extent, it seems like the
Leafs PK runs along fine for stretches and then they make a mental lapse and
stand around rather than working hard to regain position on a player, or forgot to
stickcheck when a pass goes through the slot, or let a guy outmuscle you for the
puck when you had a chance to clear the puck.  There are a lot of little "extra
effort" plays that aren't really problems with the PK system, but I think it's a little
more than try really hard and things happen.


Maybe Burke (& the coaching staff) should revisit some games of teams of a bygone era, such as the '80s NYislanders -- (of whom one of Burke's inspiration was the then Islanders GM himself, Bill Torrey)-- who "little-thnged" the opposition to death practically, figuratively-speaking.

I believe in improvisation, something which I don't quite see with the Leafs.  Not that they must go back or imitate  another era of play, but rather, try to find ways and means of learning how some top teams handled their special teams, etc., and try to 'teach' the Leaf players some tips in a way that would appeal to them. 

Perhaps the real problem my not be "lazy" players but rather a coaching staff that seems to lack the ability to instill or even ingrain some semblance of a system that is uncomplicated yet doable.  It sounds a little ridiculous when a team cannot, will not, or simply doesn't know how to adapt itself to a series of set principles. 

Stebro

Quote from: Tigger on November 15, 2011, 07:08:54 PM
Hunter attributes the Leafs' terrible penalty killing to "lack of effort. We're using the same system we used in Washington when we set a record for the least power-play goals against and the same system we used to kill penalties when we were No. 1 in the league.

"It takes time and it takes willingness. It's sacrifice. It's blocked shots. It's getting underneath sticks. It's being aware where passes are going. It's boxing out guys around the net and competing."

...

"I don't know what style of penalty kill we could play with guys who aren't willing to compete and fit a style around that," Hunter said. "If you don't have guys willing to compete it doesn't matter."


Apologies for bringing Simmons into this but I thought those comments from Hunter were telling.
This is exactly what I mean when I say that I think that they are too stubborn. Let's say that the players can't execute it? Isn't it a coaching concern then? Shouldn't they find a way to do it differently then? Imo if you just say that it's due to lack of effort or that the players isn't doing what they should, and this has been going on for a long time, then the coaches aint taking their responsibility. It's like the attitude is the following:

"Continue to do this no matter whether you allow tons of goals, because we know that this is the best system. And we don't care how much you stink on the pk, we know that this is the best system."

It's not a responsible approach. But my gut feeling tells me that Wilson is the kind of a coach who decides that his way is the best, and if it doesn't work it's not his fault, it's something else then. You have to be open to changes, and be open to make them fast if things doesn't work out.