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Jays Roster Discussion

Started by Deebo, May 25, 2016, 01:07:14 PM

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Frank E

Quote from: IJustLurkHere on August 13, 2019, 05:58:57 PM

The impression I have is that Atkins just doesn't factor in the trade-by-trade micro-analysis into his decision making. One of the reasons the NHL trade market has dried up so much is that GMs are scared of "losing" every deal... Atkins seems unperturbed by the fan disquiet at "giving away" a player if that "loss" doesn't impact his big picture plans.

I think that sort of statement is a bunch of horseshit trotted out by people that make bad decisions...the big picture plans are executed through these individual asset transactions. 

And really, I think the unrest is more taking into account a bunch of trades lately...so if the argument is that this is an over-reaction to a small move, then they're not paying attention.

Quote from: IJustLurkHere on August 13, 2019, 05:58:57 PM

I know I'd have felt better if there was some kid coming the other way, even if likely result is the kid never gets past double-A. But if there was a handshake deal with Galvin before he signed, that trumps my insecurity.

I guess I can appreciate it if they're doing a solid by the player, if only strictly for the benefit of the teams' reputation among future prospective FAs.


Nik


Another important thing worth noting is that the idea that people are complaining about these deals is in and of itself somehow noteworthy and being used as cumulative weight by people who are self-proclaimed to not be terribly knowledgeable about this stuff doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny.

Any time a team is trading actual contributing major leaguers for futures there are going to be fans complaining about how the team didn't do well enough. The better the player, the better the prospects received but also the more advocates that player will have for keeping them or getting an even better return. Some people just don't like the idea of rebuilding. Some think
"rebuilding" should be trading your guys for players who are MLB-ready. And then there are just those who are always going to think the return could be better.

Shapiro and Atkins had a tough job taking over for a popular guy like Anthopoulos and they've been criticized by some for virtually every move they made, even ones that have been proven absolutely correct(anyone out there want to pay David Price 100 million dollars over the next three years?). So "I'm hearing some people say the Jays 'lost' this trade" being a major part of what you're putting forth is suspect to say the least.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

A Weekend at Bernier's

While I understand the argument that some people are deal makers and others aren't, I honestly can't buy into the idea that Atkins is so incompetent that EVERY trade he makes is poor.  The notion that he couldn't coax, cajole or sprinkle enough magic dust to materialize a return for Freddie Galvis is ridiculous.  Despite his decent stats on a poor team, Galvis is, at best, an average player who plays a premium position.  I'm also sure that other teams weren't lining up to do the Blue Jays any favours and that any interested teams, like the Reds, likely foresaw that the Jays' hands would be forced with the emergence of young players to waive Galvis.

If the argument is that Atkins is a bit hokey and possibly disingenuous in his comments and interviews, or that the Jays' player evaluation methodology seems out of whack with principles generally utilized by the League's most successful teams (ie. Grichuk contract, Fisher trade, etc.), then I'm all ears. 

IJustLurkHere

Quote from: Frank E on August 14, 2019, 08:00:50 AM
Quote from: IJustLurkHere on August 13, 2019, 05:58:57 PM

The impression I have is that Atkins just doesn't factor in the trade-by-trade micro-analysis into his decision making. One of the reasons the NHL trade market has dried up so much is that GMs are scared of "losing" every deal... Atkins seems unperturbed by the fan disquiet at "giving away" a player if that "loss" doesn't impact his big picture plans.

I think that sort of statement is a bunch of horseshit trotted out by people that make bad decisions...the big picture plans are executed through these individual asset transactions. 

And really, I think the unrest is more taking into account a bunch of trades lately...so if the argument is that this is an over-reaction to a small move, then they're not paying attention.

Quote from: IJustLurkHere on August 13, 2019, 05:58:57 PM

I know I'd have felt better if there was some kid coming the other way, even if likely result is the kid never gets past double-A. But if there was a handshake deal with Galvin before he signed, that trumps my insecurity.

I guess I can appreciate it if they're doing a solid by the player, if only strictly for the benefit of the teams' reputation among future prospective FAs.

Wow, okay. I don't love giving away Galvis just to open up a roster spot or anything, but if you're actual smart business guy, try weighting the actual outlook of the team as parts of the rebuild are coming to fruition - they actually look pretty good right now - against your arbitrary "bad decisions" because of an imaginary threshold of asset management you've decided is required... simply, I'm not the one full of horseshit. But you keep on being aggressively wrong and enjoy that. This is the internet after all.

Nik

Quote from: IJustLurkHere on August 13, 2019, 05:58:57 PM
I know I'd have felt better if there was some kid coming the other way, even if likely result is the kid never gets past double-A.

So I think you and I are in general agreement about most of this but I just have to pause to ask about this. Each year, because of the way Baseball does their draft and international signings, each team is going to add 30 or so prospects to the organization. Then with international signings you're probably looking at 30-40 prospects added each year, most of whom are in the "unlikely to get past AA" category.

So when you say that getting one more guy in a Galvis trade would make you feel better...is it just a matter of principle? I'm not trying to be overly literal or sarcastic I just genuinely am puzzled by this sort of attitude when, quite literally, the Jays could go out right now and sign a whole basket-full of probably meaningless prospects who got passed over in the draft if they wanted to. Why does one extra for Galvis matter at all?
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

hockeyfan1

Gurriel on the shelf:

[tweet]1162758301022658560[/tweet]

Vladdy leaves game:

[tweet]1162817136676474880[/tweet]


Deebo

Pearson is getting promoted to AAA Buffalo.

Highlander

Good news, lets get him up here before the season ends, even if he only starts a few games.
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki

hockeyfan1

That's good news indeed.  Can hardly wait to see what he's got.  He's #14 on the MLB Pipeline prospect list and #15 on Baseball America's prospect list.

He's the Blue Jays #2 prospect behind Bichette.

Highlander

Quote from: hockeyfan1 on August 18, 2019, 08:04:33 PM
That's good news indeed.  Can hardly wait to see what he's got.  He's #14 on the MLB Pipeline prospect list and #15 on Baseball America's prospect list.

He's the Blue Jays #2 prospect behind Bichette.
Bichette should be off the list as he has already attained GodHead status
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki

hockeyfan1

#1000
Good news Blue Jay fans (and something to help us that farcical 16-3 debacle at the hands of the L.A. Dodgers).  The Jays prospect Nate Pearson had a very successful debut with Triple A Buffalo with pitching seven shutout innings.

[tweet]1163984336108081154[/tweet]

[tweet]1163998702584967169[/tweet]

Thank goodness.  The (pitching) future looks bright.

Highlander

Ya Pearson and Manoah could be beasts and Pearson could be with us for next season.  I really like Thornton as well.   Borucki will be healed for next year. And Zuech just threw a no hitter.
Waguespack has been a pleasant surprise as well. 
I think we have a lot of good pitching out there and some about half of it will be ready for next season.

And Shoemaker if he can remain healthy, had a great start to this season.  I sort of feel like I did about the Leafs 3 years ago when the rebuild was getting a hot start. 
"In the beginners mind there are many possibilities, but in the expert's there are few"
                                           Sunryn Suzuki

hockeyfan1

More good news:  Add Anthony Kay to the mix.  Kay pitched six scoreless innings that went with the six strikeouts.  Impressive and improved performance.

[tweet]1164346043368185856[/tweet]

hockeyfan1

Ah, can't forget this:  the fun stuff...

[tweet]1163225262840057856[/tweet]

hockeyfan1

The completion for the Eric Sogard trade:

[tweet]1168176833252274176[/tweet]