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Jimmy Vesey

Started by azzurri63, March 12, 2016, 06:29:56 PM

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Nik


NYC is also more expensive than Toronto.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

bustaheims

Quote from: Nik the Trik on August 23, 2016, 03:12:48 PM
NYC is also more expensive than Toronto.

I'm relatively certain LA is, as well. Though, that is somewhat evened out by the difference in taxes.

At the end of the day, as much as I love Toronto, if I had the choice, as a young professional set to earn near $1M, I'd choose NYC or LA over T.O. As a hockey player, I'd also probably choose Chicago ahead of Toronto as well, but that's largely because of the difference between the two teams. Choosing between those two cities is largely a coin-flip for me.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Bates

The tax gain from LA and NY vs Toronto is about $50K on a $1.2 million salary.  That will easily be made up by paying significantly lower cost of living in Canadian dollars while receiving a salary in US dollars.  Players money goes a lot further in Toronto than either of NY or LA. I have never understood the draw to NY or LA for low earning NHL players??  They would be rich in most Cities but not those two.

Nik

Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
The tax gain from LA and NY vs Toronto is about $50K on a $1.2 million salary.

Are you just figuring that based on tax rates or are you including things like agents fees being deductible in the States but not in Canada(which got brought up during the Stamkos sage)

Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
That will easily be made up by paying significantly lower cost of living in Canadian dollars while receiving a salary in US dollars.  Players money goes a lot further in Toronto than either of NY or LA. I have never understood the draw to NY or LA for low earning NHL players??  They would be rich in most Cities but not those two.

It's about lifestyle more than anything else. As for expenses, it's important to keep in mind that these guys aren't living typical lives. Most young, unmarried players aren't going to be thinking about buying property right away or if so they're not going to be buying huge places(for example, look at Bozak and Kessel sharing a condo despite both earning millions).

Likewise, most of these players aren't going to be doing a ton of shopping for necessities. On the road they get per diems for food and the growing trend now is for teams to feed them at their rinks/practice facilities. Their fridges at 22-23 aren't likely to be all that better stocked than mine was.

Young athletes in their 20's have expenses that aren't likely to be all that related to costs of living. One of our car people could correct me on this but I don't think a particular model of car in NYC will be more expensive than the same model of car in Columbus or wherever. Same thing with expensive clothing or Iphones and so on.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bates

Just googled it and found the info on Gavin group website.  I am not talking about cars and clothes but more along the line of accomodations.  A suitable condo for an NHL player in comparison would be I would guess double the price of Toronto in LA for instance.  Much cheaper in places like AZ but that really isn't the discussion.  Property taxes alone make living in most of California and New York cost prohibitive. It's not uncommon for NHL players to be paying $15,000 per month in NY and LA for rent alone. 
Quote from: Nik the Trik on August 23, 2016, 07:51:52 PM
Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
The tax gain from LA and NY vs Toronto is about $50K on a $1.2 million salary.

Are you just figuring that based on tax rates or are you including things like agents fees being deductible in the States but not in Canada(which got brought up during the Stamkos sage)

Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 03:50:26 PM
That will easily be made up by paying significantly lower cost of living in Canadian dollars while receiving a salary in US dollars.  Players money goes a lot further in Toronto than either of NY or LA. I have never understood the draw to NY or LA for low earning NHL players??  They would be rich in most Cities but not those two.

It's about lifestyle more than anything else. As for expenses, it's important to keep in mind that these guys aren't living typical lives. Most young, unmarried players aren't going to be thinking about buying property right away or if so they're not going to be buying huge places(for example, look at Bozak and Kessel sharing a condo despite both earning millions).

Likewise, most of these players aren't going to be doing a ton of shopping for necessities. On the road they get per diems for food and the growing trend now is for teams to feed them at their rinks/practice facilities. Their fridges at 22-23 aren't likely to be all that better stocked than mine was.

Young athletes in their 20's have expenses that aren't likely to be all that related to costs of living. One of our car people could correct me on this but I don't think a particular model of car in NYC will be more expensive than the same model of car in Columbus or wherever. Same thing with expensive clothing or Iphones and so on.

Nik

Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 10:06:27 PM
Just googled it and found the info on Gavin group website.

From that same website:

QuoteKeep in mind that this does not recognize a player's deductions, credits, exemptions, foreign tax considerations and tax owing in other cities, states or provinces.

So something like the difference in being able to deduct agent fees, which can run 4-5% of a player's total salary can easily double that 50,000 dollar difference.

Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 10:06:27 PM
  I am not talking about cars and clothes but more along the line of accomodations.  A suitable condo for an NHL player in comparison would be I would guess double the price of Toronto in LA for instance.  Much cheaper in places like AZ but that really isn't the discussion.  Property taxes alone make living in most of California and New York cost prohibitive. It's not uncommon for NHL players to be paying $15,000 per month in NY and LA for rent alone.

I'm not sure where you're getting that figure(and if it applies to the younger players making less who, as I say, can frequently share places with teammates) but even so 15 thousand a month for someone making 1.2 million or so is a lot of money but it's not prohibitively expensive.

And if you're renting you're probably not paying property tax so that seems besides the point.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

bustaheims

Quote from: Bates on August 23, 2016, 10:06:27 PM
Property taxes alone make living in most of California and New York cost prohibitive. It's not uncommon for NHL players to be paying $15,000 per month in NY and LA for rent alone.

As Nik points out, renting and property taxes don't mix. And, if a player is paying $15K per month in rent, that's their choice. That's not a cost of living thing. There are perfectly good places in both LA and NYC they could be renting for a fraction of that cost. For $5K a month, they could find a pretty nice place in a decent part of town - and, even for a player earning league minimum, that's easily affordable.
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Bates

If you guys don't think property taxes play a role in rent I'm not sure how to have a conversation with you about it???  Toronto vs those two are not great examples as Toronto has higher taxes and a higher cost of living than most NHL Cities.  The real savings are in th elow cost of living Cities in the places with the lowest taxes.  Places such as Alberta, Florida, Texas, AZ, and so on offer the entry level player or the league's lower paid players a chance to really keep a great life and to be able to save plenty for life after hockey.  And for the record if you think an NHL player can rent a suitable place for their standards for $5000 in the LA area you really aren't in touch with that area.  That would be suitable in Toronto but you would need 2 or 3 times that in LA, especially if you want to live where the Vets are as most do.

WhatIfGodWasALeaf

Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
If you guys don't think property taxes play a role in rent I'm not sure how to have a conversation with you about it???  Toronto vs those two are not great examples as Toronto has higher taxes and a higher cost of living than most NHL Cities.  The real savings are in th elow cost of living Cities in the places with the lowest taxes.  Places such as Alberta, Florida, Texas, AZ, and so on offer the entry level player or the league's lower paid players a chance to really keep a great life and to be able to save plenty for life after hockey.  And for the record if you think an NHL player can rent a suitable place for their standards for $5000 in the LA area you really aren't in touch with that area.  That would be suitable in Toronto but you would need 2 or 3 times that in LA, especially if you want to live where the Vets are as most do.

That is utter nonsense, I'm extremely familiar with the housing market in CA.

For a rookie, you can rent a luxury apartment on Hollywood Boulevard for less than $3500 a month.

Anyone playing for the Ducks or the Sharks can have a less than 30-minute commute and be living in a mansion on several acres for less than $5k.

Just stop.


Bates

Thats nice that they can live there but they dont. The areas they live in you won't be renting for $3500, thats the point of the discussion. They could rent in Scarborough for almost nothing as well!!


As the only L.A. team in championship contention, the Kings have a lot of new fans. But their base has long been the beach cities of the South Bay. All but one of the 24 players on the Kings' roster live in Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach or Redondo Beach

Quote from: WhatIfGodWasALeaf on August 24, 2016, 08:47:56 AM
Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
If you guys don't think property taxes play a role in rent I'm not sure how to have a conversation with you about it???  Toronto vs those two are not great examples as Toronto has higher taxes and a higher cost of living than most NHL Cities.  The real savings are in th elow cost of living Cities in the places with the lowest taxes.  Places such as Alberta, Florida, Texas, AZ, and so on offer the entry level player or the league's lower paid players a chance to really keep a great life and to be able to save plenty for life after hockey.  And for the record if you think an NHL player can rent a suitable place for their standards for $5000 in the LA area you really aren't in touch with that area.  That would be suitable in Toronto but you would need 2 or 3 times that in LA, especially if you want to live where the Vets are as most do.

That is utter nonsense, I'm extremely familiar with the housing market in CA.

For a rookie, you can rent a luxury apartment on Hollywood Boulevard for less than $3500 a month.

Anyone playing for the Ducks or the Sharks can have a less than 30-minute commute and be living in a mansion on several acres for less than $5k.

Just stop.

WhatIfGodWasALeaf

Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 09:00:34 AM
Thats nice that they can live there but they dont. The areas they live in you won't be renting for $3500, thats the point of the discussion. They could rent in Scarborough for almost nothing as well!!


As the only L.A. team in championship contention, the Kings have a lot of new fans. But their base has long been the beach cities of the South Bay. All but one of the 24 players on the Kings' roster live in Manhattan Beach, Hermosa Beach or Redondo Beach


Please, stop it.

They can have a beautiful house or a luxury apartment less than 5 minutes walk from the beach in either Manhattan Beach or Redondo Beach for significantly less than $5k a month if they are renting.

You clearly have no clue what you're talking about.


Nik

Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
If you guys don't think property taxes play a role in rent I'm not sure how to have a conversation with you about it???

It's not something I think. It's something I live every day. I both own property and rent it. I pay property tax on the property I own, I don't on the one I rent. It really couldn't be any simpler. 

Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
And for the record if you think an NHL player can rent a suitable place for their standards for $5000 in the LA area you really aren't in touch with that area.  That would be suitable in Toronto but you would need 2 or 3 times that in LA, especially if you want to live where the Vets are as most do.

I don't think NHL players all have the exact same requirements/standards for places to live but you are wildly overestimating the housing costs in LA regardless.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Nik


It's also probably worth mentioning that we've kind of moved away from the original point. Bates said he didn't understand the draw of places like LA or New York for low earning NHL players because "they could be rich in other cities but not in LA or New York" but even if we use his math that doesn't really check out.

For starters, players earning the minimum or near the minimum aren't likely to be players that have a ton of choice in terms of where they play so let's assume a certain level of salary in terms of players making a choice. Bates used 1.2 million earlier so lets use that. According to the Gavin group tax calculator thing(which, like I said, is nowhere near a complete read of a player's tax situation) the LA based player would have a take home of 632,146.58 compared to 591,607.03

(But, again, that's not taking into account the other tax breaks they'd get in LA vs. Toronto check those out here: http://gavingroup.ca/personal-income-tax-rates-in-nhl-cities/tax-deductible-business-expenses/)

So already the LA based player is up 40 grand. However, Bates contends that rents are twice in LA what they are in Toronto and that the minimum for young players is 15 thousand a month(which is nuts for many reasons but one of which being, as mentioned, young players often live with housemates).

Even if we accept that as true though that means the LA based player is paying 180 grand per month in rent to the Toronto player's 90 grand. So that means after rent their take homes are:

LA player: 452,146.58

Toronto player: 501,607.03

Now, I can't speak for the rest of you but to me that doesn't strike me as the difference between being rich and being not rich.

So the appeal of LA(or NYC) for a young player is you're maybe taking home 10% less than a player in Toronto for all of the lifestyle options LA offers vs. Toronto. Seems pretty understandable to me and I don't even like the beach.
I wish to hell I'd never said "Winning isn't everything it's the only thing". What I believe is, if you go out on a football field, or any endeavour in life, and you leave every fibre of what you have on the field, then you've won.
- Vince Lombardi

Bates

Do you build in the property taxes when determining your rents?  Do the tenants pay rent based on property tax costs?  It really is that simple.  I spend everyday in AZ with people who have left LA area because of the cost of housing and living.  I am not over estimating anything when I say that if you use comparables LA costs 2 to 3 times the cost of Phoenix and at least double that of any Canadian City.  The cost of acquiring property and enormous property taxes make LA property rent for that much more.
Quote from: Nik the Trik on August 24, 2016, 10:12:13 AM
Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
If you guys don't think property taxes play a role in rent I'm not sure how to have a conversation with you about it???

It's not something I think. It's something I live every day. I both own property and rent it. I pay property tax on the property I own, I don't on the one I rent. It really couldn't be any simpler. 

Quote from: Bates on August 24, 2016, 08:31:26 AM
And for the record if you think an NHL player can rent a suitable place for their standards for $5000 in the LA area you really aren't in touch with that area.  That would be suitable in Toronto but you would need 2 or 3 times that in LA, especially if you want to live where the Vets are as most do.

I don't think NHL players all have the exact same requirements/standards for places to live but you are wildly overestimating the housing costs in LA regardless.

Bates

As I said Toronto was a bad example for my opinion as Alberta, Florida, AZ, Texas, are better.  But you should also add the 30% exchange rate the player playing in Toronto will receive that really helps paying his rent.
Quote from: Nik the Trik on August 24, 2016, 10:43:53 AM

It's also probably worth mentioning that we've kind of moved away from the original point. Bates said he didn't understand the draw of places like LA or New York for low earning NHL players because "they could be rich in other cities but not in LA or New York" but even if we use his math that doesn't really check out.

For starters, players earning the minimum or near the minimum aren't likely to be players that have a ton of choice in terms of where they play so let's assume a certain level of salary in terms of players making a choice. Bates used 1.2 million earlier so lets use that. According to the Gavin group tax calculator thing(which, like I said, is nowhere near a complete read of a player's tax situation) the LA based player would have a take home of 632,146.58 compared to 591,607.03

(But, again, that's not taking into account the other tax breaks they'd get in LA vs. Toronto check those out here: http://gavingroup.ca/personal-income-tax-rates-in-nhl-cities/tax-deductible-business-expenses/)

So already the LA based player is up 40 grand. However, Bates contends that rents are twice in LA what they are in Toronto and that the minimum for young players is 15 thousand a month(which is nuts for many reasons but one of which being, as mentioned, young players often live with housemates).

Even if we accept that as true though that means the LA based player is paying 180 grand per month in rent to the Toronto player's 90 grand. So that means after rent their take homes are:

LA player: 452,146.58

Toronto player: 501,607.03

Now, I can't speak for the rest of you but to me that doesn't strike me as the difference between being rich and being not rich.

So the appeal of LA(or NYC) for a young player is you're maybe taking home 10% less than a player in Toronto for all of the lifestyle options LA offers vs. Toronto. Seems pretty understandable to me and I don't even like the beach.